Fannish Practices

  • Deel de OTW video!

    By Priscilla Del Cima on Thursday, 10 April 2014 - 4:44pm
    Message type:

    Banner by Diane with the outlines of a man and woman speaking with word bubbles, one of which has the OTW logo and the other which says 'OTW Announcement'

    De ledenwervingscampagne van de OTW is officieel afgelopen, en we willen graag iedereen die eraan heeft meegeholpen bedanken. Jullie vrijgevigheid en inspanning om het bericht te verspreiden, hebben dit tot de meest succesvolle campagne ooit gemaakt! Sinds 3 april hebben we meer dan 2.800 individuele donaties ontvangen, met een totale waarde van meer dan US$63.000. Ook hebben we ervoor gezorgd dat de OTW nu minstens 4.869 leden heeft!

    Dank aan all onze leden, donoren, en aan iedereen die het bericht heeft verspreid om deze campagne zo’n spectaculair succes te maken. We zijn erg dankbaar voor jullie hulp! We willen ook graag de stafleden en vrijwilligers van de OTW bedanken, die aan de campagne meegeholpen hebben door inhoud te maken, te vertalen en te posten, op donatieaanvragen te reageren, graphics te ontwerpen, e-mails te versturen, donatiebevestigingen te controleren en nog een groot aantal andere taken. Bedankt voor het mogelijk maken van deze campagne.

    Hoewel de campagne voorbij is, ontvangen we graag donaties het hele jaar door. Dit jaar hebben we ook een heel speciaal project om met jullie te delen, dat je misschien kunt gebruiken om aan anderen uit te leggen waarom je de OTW steunt.

    Met dank aan de geweldige bedrevenheid in vidding van Ash48, en de fanwerkcontributies van tientallen fans, presenteren we met trots een video-introductie tot de OTW.

    De OTW-video legt aan mensen die niet bekend zijn met fandoms en fanwerk uit wat de OTW doet. Hij omschrijft transformatieve werken en geeft een overzicht van onze projecten, evenals inzicht in wat fans allemaal maken.

    We hopen dat jullie de video met zowel fans als niet-fans zullen delen. Je kunt hem vinden op YouTube, Vimeo, en Critical Commons, en ook op de website van de OTW.

    De vrijwillige vertalers van de OTW zijn op dit moment bezig met ondertitels in het Arabisch, Catalaans, Chinees, Duits, Fins, Frans, Indonesisch, Italiaans, Nederlands, Pools, Portugees, Spaans, Turks en Zweeds. Als er een vertaling af is, zullen we tweets en Tumblr-posts ter promotie de wereld in sturen.

    We zouden het ook geweldig vinden om deze video in zo veel mogelijk talen beschikbaar te stellen. Kan jij helpen? Als je één (of meerdere!) talen anders dan Engels vloeiend spreekt en de voice-over zou willen helpen inspreken, neem dan contact met ons op. We zouden graag met je samenwerken!

    De deelname en medewerking van fans van overal is wat ervoor zorgt dat de OTW en al haar projecten kunnen doorgaan. Bedankt dat je er onderdeel van uitmaakt!

  • Compartilhe o vídeo da OTW!

    By Priscilla Del Cima on Thursday, 10 April 2014 - 4:42pm
    Message type:

    Banner by Diane with the outlines of a man and woman speaking with word bubbles, one of which has the OTW logo and the other which says 'OTW Announcement'

    A campanha de abril da OTW chegou ao fim, e gostaríamos de agradecer a todos que vieram nos oferecer apoio. Sua generosidade e ajuda em divulgar fizeram com que essa fosse a nossa campanha mais bem-sucedida até agora! Desde 3 de abril, recebemos mais de 2800 doações individuais, totalizando mais de 63 mil dólares! O número de membros da OTW também aumentou; agora temos mais de 4869 membros!

    Agradecemos muito a cada membro e a cada pessoa que fez uma doação, ou ajudou a divulgar, fazendo com que essa campanha se tornasse um sucesso tão estrondoso. Somos extremamente gratxs pelo seu apoio! Também gostaríamos de agradecer a todxs da equipe OTW que ajudaram a promover essa campanha criando, traduzindo e publicando conteúdo, respondendo a mensagens de doadorxs, criando gráficos, enviando e-mails em massa, monitorando recibos de doações, e diversas outras tarefas. Obrigadx! Foi graças a vocês que a campanha pode acontecer.

    Embora a campanha tenha terminado, nós graciosamente aceitamos doações durante o ano todo. Este ano também temos um projeto muito especial para compartilhar com vocês, o qual você pode utilizar quando contar para outras pessoas o porquê de você apoiar a OTW.

    Graças ao incrível talento em fan video de Ash48, e das contribuições em obras de dezenas de fãs, temos o orgulho de apresentar um vídeo de introdução à OTW.

    O vídeo da OTW explica a pessoas que não são familiares com fandom e obras de fãs o que a OTW faz, oferecendo uma definição de "obras transformativas" e uma visão geral de nossos projetos e de obras de fãs.

    Esperamos que você compartilhe este vído com gente tanto dentro quanto fora do fandom. O vídeo está disponível no YouTube, no Vimeo, e no Critical Commons, bem como no site da OTW.

    A equipe voluntária de tradução da OTW está atualmente trabalhando para produzir legendas em alemão, árabe, catalão, chinês, espanhol, finlandês, francês, holandês, indonésio, italiano, polonês, português, sueco e turco. Conforme cada tradução for sendo finalizada, faremos posts no Twitter e no Tumblr para promovê-la.

    Também adoraríamos ter esse vídeo narrado em todos os idiomas possíveis! Você poderia nos ajudar? Se você for fluente num idioma (ou vários!) além de inglês e quiser nos ajudar a gravar uma faixa de áudio, por favor entre em contato. Ficaríamos muito felizes em ter você conosco!

    A participação e colaboração de fãs de todo o mundo é o que faz com que a OTW e seus projetos continuem a existir! Muito obrigadx por ser parte disso!

  • Share the OTW video!

    By Jennifer Radecki on Thursday, 10 April 2014 - 4:32pm
    Message type:

     

    Banner by Diane with the outlines of a man and woman speaking with word bubbles, one of which has the OTW logo and the other which says 'OTW Announcement'

    The OTW's April membership drive has officially ended, and we'd like to thank everyone who came out to support it. Your generosity and efforts in spreading the word have made this our most successful drive ever! Since April 3 we've received more than 2,800 individual donations totaling over US$63,000. We've also raised the OTW's membership to at least 4,869 people!

    Thank you to all our members, donors, and to everyone who helped spread the word to make this drive such a spectacular success. We’re very grateful for your support! We’d also like to thank all the OTW staffers and volunteers who supported the drive by creating, translating and posting content, responding to donor inquiries, designing graphics, sending e-mail blasts, monitoring donation receipts, and myriad other tasks. Thank you for making the drive possible.

    Although this drive is over, we gratefully accept donations throughout the year. This year we also have a very special project to share with you, that you may want to use when telling others why you support the OTW.

    Thanks to the amazing vidding skills of Ash48, and the fanwork contributions of dozens of fans, we are proud to present a video introduction to the OTW.

    The OTW video explains to people unfamiliar with fandoms and fanworks what it is that the OTW does. It defines transformative works, and provides an overview of our projects as well as an insight into what fans create.

    We hope that you'll share the video with fans and non-fans alike. You can find it on YouTube, Vimeo, and Critical Commons, as well as on the OTW website.

    The OTW's volunteer translators are currently working on subtitles for Arabic, Catalan, Chinese, Dutch, Finnish, French, German, Indonesian, Italian, Polish, Portuguese, Spanish, Swedish and Turkish. As each translation is completed, we will be sending out tweets and tumblr posts promoting it.

    We would also love to have this video narrated in as many languages as possible! Can you help? If you're fluent in a language (or more!) other than English and are willing to help record the voiceover track, please contact us. We'd be thrilled to work with you!

    The participation and collaboration of fans everywhere is what keeps the OTW and all its projects going. Thank you for being a part of it!

     

  • Transcript for The Future of Fanworks entertainment industry chat

    By Claudia Rebaza on Saturday, 29 March 2014 - 11:03pm
    Message type:

    On March 29th the OTW held a chat with entertainment industry guests. If you missed it, here's the chat transcript! This has been edited for arrivals and departures in the room and greetings from the audience.

    We would like to thank all of the panelists who took part in our "The Future of Fanworks" discussions and helped us celebrate our project milestones. If you missed any of the events, check that post for links to other discussions.


    *Orlando_Jones
    How's everyone doing this fine Saturday?

    roane
    I think in need of coffee, but otherwise, good. :) You?

    Lielac
    Tired and contemplating going to sleep and waiting for the transcript.

    dizmo
    Half-asleep still, but not minding it.

    *Orlando_Jones
    Doing well thank you. Currently in Chicago.

    *Diane D.
    Orlando> Oh good, not *too* early then.

    Oriza
    Really good! Roommates cooked breakfast this morning so that was nice.

    *Orlando_Jones
    That is true :-)

    Lielac
    I got very, very obsessed with Fullmetal Alchemist this past week and am rectifying the lack of appealing fanworks by making my own, hehe.

    *Diane D.
    roane> (waves at you)

    Oriza
    Wish I hadn't lost my oystercard yesterday though :/

    roane
    Hi Diane! :)

    Angela Nichols
    hanging out with a delicious doughnut and you lovely people, couldn't be better

    *Diane D.
    (nomming a little more late lunch) http://smittenkitchen.com/blog/2014/02/stuck-pot-rice-with-lentils-and-yogurt/

    dizmo
    I am on my phone in bed. It is comfortable. :p

    *Diane D.
    ...First time for this recipe, very successful.

    abigail89
    I'm at work, but it's quiet, so I can read along. Glad to be here!

    Oriza
    Ooohhh that looks delicious!

    dizmo
    Mmmmm

    *Orlando_Jones
    Oriza> What's an Oyster Card? Line of credit at the seafood bank?

    roane
    I have to say, if a little fangirling isn't out of order before we start, I ADORE Sleepy Hollow, Orlando.

    *Orlando_Jones
    Roane> Thanks for the kind words.

    Oriza
    Oh, sorry! It's a card that you use in London for public transport. You can put money on it and it deducts money each time you swipe at the turnstile when you enter the Underground or buses.

    abigail89
    And thank you, Orlando, to you and Tom Mison for the lovely PSA on behalf of NC Historic Sites.

    *Orlando_Jones
    Oriza> Got it :-). Hope you find it then.

    *Orlando_Jones
    abigail89> Thanks. We enjoyed doing that.

    *Diane D.
    oriza > Have often thought those cards should come with a clap-to-find-it chip.

    Michelle D.
    Hi all! (And Sleepy Hollow love from me too!)

    roane
    Diane> you may have a moneymaking idea there.

    Oriza
    That would be so useful! Pretty sure mine's definitely stolen though. I checked with TFL this morning and someone used it to get to Seven Sisters yesterday afternoon, which I most definitely did not do.

    Priscilla D.
    All the Sleepy Hollow and Young Wizards love! <3

    Lielac
    Young Wizards is the bessssst

    *Diane D.
    roane> Have the same problem with the Irish version (the Leap card). Worse as I keep them together.

    Lielac> Aww, thanks, :)

    Priscilla> Thanking You, as we say in these parts. :)

    oriza> Will they credit your new card with what was lost on the old one?

    Alena
    I get my Boston version (Charlie card) from my work, and they can combine it with your ID card, but then you'd just lose your ID and your public transit card at the same time...

    Angela Nichols
    at least it has your name on it?

    Claudia R.
    Welcome everyone, we'll be kicking our chat off soon! I believe Ellen is currently away from her keyboard.

    Oriza
    I have no idea-- it's through my study abroad program, and I had a four-week pass on there. I've emailed my uni already and haven't gotten a response yet :/

    Here's hoping. But I didn't have much left on it at least.

    *Diane D.
    oriza> That's helpful, anyway.
    (runs off for glass of wine)

    Oriza
    Yep :)

    *Diane D.
    Ellen! (HUG)

    *Orlando_Jones
    Hello Ellen!

    *EllenKushner
    Hello, all. You Chime!

    Gives new meaning to "chiming in," dun nit?

    *Diane D.
    (snicker)

    *EllenKushner
    I got a million

    Michelle D.
    Hee, looking forward to them!

    Angela Nichols
    everyone ready to start?

    *EllenKushner
    Sure

    *Diane D.
    All set.

    *Orlando_Jones
    Let's do it!

    Angela Nichols
    Hello and welcome! As advertised, the Organization for Transformative Works is running a series of chats during the month of March about the future of fanworks, in celebration of our Milestone Month in February. Each discussion features a panel focusing on a different perspective: academic, fannish, industry and legal. Transcripts will be made public by tomorrow.

    You are currently in the entertainment industry discussion. I’m your moderator, Angela, and I’m a staffer with the OTW’s Communications committee. We have some prepared questions for the panel, but we’re happy for the discussion to evolve organically.

    Now to introduce our panelists! You can check out their bios by following the links on our announcement post

    Author and screenwriter, Diane Duane

    Actor, Orlando Jones

    *Diane D.
    (waves at everybody)

    Angela Nichols
    and Author, Ellen Kushner!

    *EllenKushner
    hi

    *Orlando_Jones
    Hello all

    Angela Nichols
    Thank you all so much for your time and your participation!

    We’ll begin by posing a question and then asking for each of our panelists to answer, after which if you’d like to engage with earlier replies, please do

    diving in, What do you remember as your first encounter with fanworks or issues surrounding fanworks?

    Diane, do you want to start?

    *Diane D.
    Uh! Sure.

    *EllenKushner
    A two-pronged answer for me: Since I was a kid, I wrote stories set in worlds I read about and wanted to live in, beginning with Narnia, Joan Aiken's London (well, those were plays) and then, as a teen, when I finally had some friends who loved Star Trek, we all wrote about Our Own Starship. And then LeGuin's Earthsea, a solo act. But I was unaware that there was a name for any of this. (1:2)

    Angela Nichols
    Or Ellen, haha

    *EllenKushner
    (2:2) Then, in my 20s, when I was in publishing as a SF/F editor, I encountered K/S fic at some con or other - and found Joanna Russ's great essay, "By Women for Women with Love," which attempted to explain/philosophize what it was all about. First time I'd ever seen anyone write about it! And I was hooked.

    (And now, as Stephen Sondheim says: "Your turn!")

    *Diane D.
    First time I saw anybody's fanworks but my own would have been at a Lunacon (a SF concention) in NY in the mid 1970s, possibly '73. Tables piled with stacks and stacks of fanzines! I had no idea there was a name for this kind of activity. It was just something I'd been doing on my own (first with Tolkien and then later with Trek) for a long time.

    ...I am still trying to track down one of the K/S stories I saw there, which was one of the funniest things I'd ever read. Opening line: "Spock was aces at breaking and entering."

    Miraba
    I can't believe I just found out about this. I have to go pick up a friend :(

    *Diane D.
    ...But the discovery that there were other people doing this thing that I thought I'd been all alone doing... boy. Groundbreaking.

    Angela Nichols
    And Ellen, K/S, just to clarify for everyone is Kirk/Spock Star Trek fan fiction, correct?

    *EllenKushner
    Correct.

    Angela Nichols
    Diane, I had the same realization but mine came after Googling Harry Potter

    its great to realize you're not alone

    *Orlando_Jones
    As I think anyone who has (or has been) a child with an active imagination can attest to, my first experience with fanworks was the make believe of childhood. Cops and robbers. Cowboys and Indians. Playing doctor (with a decent HMO). All those experiences were informed by a frame of reference based on something I had heard or seen from adults or television or somewhere. I had Buck Rogers action figures with which we created very complex narratives. I even see it now with my daughter and her very elaborate tea parties and the unique cast of character she invites. In terms of the modern day iteration of fanworks while I had some awareness about the content I only become deeply immersed in its language, culture and traditions in the last 9 months. With regard to the "issues" surrounding fanworks I'm still learning.

    *EllenKushner
    And I should stop trying to curry favor - I was "hooked" on the idea of it, since I'd recently started working on what was to become SWORDSPOINT, my first novel, and was grappling with M/M (so to speak) - I think I was still too embarrassed to read a lot of K/S.

    *Diane D.
    Angela> CS Lewis marks that kind of realization out as key in the beginning of a great friendship. It certainly was for me.

    Angela Nichols
    Diane > I think for most of us!

    Eli M.
    It seems like there's a common thread of being compelled to write one's own fannish works before even knowing that it's a common thing to do. I wonder how or if that's changing with the existence of the internet.

    *EllenKushner
    Well said, Orland!

    Miraba
    I suspect a lot of people were just doing the stories in their heads as children, even if they never thought of writing them down. I know I spent a lot of time in my head trying to correct the weird quasi-racist elements of Redwall.

    *Diane D.
    Orlando> The modern complications surrounding fanworks get more interesting with (it seems) every passing day. Stick around, it gets better... :)

    *EllenKushner
    I'm fascinated with where we draw the line (or circle around) "creating fannish works"- would you call kids' games "improvisational theater?" At what point do we cross the line between that & the conscious creation of a work of art?

    Angela Nichols
    Orlando > Now that you mention playing as a kid, I remember play school, as Star Wars characters with my American Girl dolls, hows that for a crossover?

    *Diane D.
    Ellen> Listen, I'm still confused about that now. I tell stories and people give me money. But is it art? ;)

    *Orlando_Jones
    Angela> Just take my money now ;-)

    *EllenKushner
    Diane> Yes - no Judgement! ;)

    Angela Nichols
    I like that point, Ellen, and even on a bigger scale to creation as a whole

    roane
    I'm fascinated at how many writers started out writing 'fanworks'. I know I did too, I had no idea it was a thing.

    Angela Nichols
    where a story about pride and prejudice is an adaptation but about Star Trek is fanwork

    gabby
    (Roane -> there'll be a panel at WisCon this May on that very topic!)

    Lielac
    I find it easier, as a practicing exercise, to take something already there and elaborate or modify it. I've been writing fanfic for as long as I can remember, really.

    *Diane D.
    Roane> Certainly a lot of us in the 70s were operating in isolation: there wasn't the knowledge that there were all these other people doing this as well.

    Quietborderline
    I agree, to see "real" writers that also write or started out writing fanfiction is hugely inspiring! =)

    *EllenKushner
    I think the difference is that writing about a commercial property that cannot legally be published is fan work?

    BlameMyMuses
    I strongly dislike that distinction. When I first got into fanfic/fandom/fanworks, my mom was quite vocal with her opinion that they were a waste of time. I maintain that they're excellent practice, instead.

    *Diane D.
    Roane> New young writers have a huge Net-based support structure that we could only have dreamed of.

    *EllenKushner
    EVERYONE COME TO WISCON!!!!! 3 days of solid pleasure. With great food.

    gabby
    :D AGREED

    BlameMyMuses
    (distinction re: adaptation vs. fanwork)

    roane
    Ellen > So where do things like 50 SoG fall, I wonder? The origins were obviously as a fanwork.

    bookdal
    Ellen> I was just going to suggest that perhaps the ability to create a "property" is the distinguishing factor and art is a secondary or even tertiary concern?

    roane
    er, 50 Shades of Gray, I should clarify

    *Diane D.
    Blame> Hey, I had that too. My response was similar to that for most of my parents' other opinions: I ignored it and got on with business.

    Lielac
    BlameMyMuses> Oh, yeah. Like, Pride and Prejudice and Zombies is a fanwork, but because PaP is in the public domain it's something you can publish and legally get money for.

    Eli M.
    Angela > There's also the fact that adaptation and expansion of a universe was considered the better way to go in terms of being a creator for a long time. The Arthurian mythos, for example, is people reinventing the universe again and again.

    Lielac
    Eli> And that!

    *EllenKushner
    bookdal> LIsten, as the co-founder of the Interstitial Arts Foundation, I'm not one to draw a cranky distinction between "art" and "not art"!

    jenna
    angela> it's really fascinating to look at where we draw the line, culturally, between adaptations that are acceptable and proper, and adaptations that are just fan indulgence. certainly there is a legality issue, but i think we also have to note that the adaptation of some things is more socially acceptable compared to the adaptation of others.

    *EllenKushner
    I just meant a CRAFTED WORK meant for PUBLIC CONSUMPTION, rather than the games kids play together in private as "work of art"

    enchantedsleeper
    Jenna > Agreed!!

    *Orlando_Jones
    I work with a non-profit that teaches young people from lower income households about entrepreneurship and starting a business. We're very focused on access and opportunity in communities where that is lacking. I imagine that young kids today creating fan-works have the benefit of what some of us might not have experienced which is they know what's possible given the more mainstream adoption of fanworks. That's exciting.

    Lielac
    Ellen> Ahaa.

    Oriza
    I wonder also how different it is between types of fandom. Punk rock still has a huge fanzine base, and it's heavily DIY, but it's not "fanfiction", really-- it's just articles and reviews written for free by fans of punk, put together in a magazine. But it's still a fanwork.

    gabby
    One distinction is simply financial: most fanfiction is not made to be sold, and so ideas of marketability in the capitalist sense doesnt' come into it. Marketability to readership, though, yes.

    Angela Nichols
    I think its really interesting too. It does seem like the legal limit make a clear line

    CollectivaDiva
    jenna> what do you think makes a work more socially acceptable to adapt, then?

    Eli M.
    jenna> It's also fascinating to see where some creators draw the line with respect to what's legal vs. what's acceptable to them re: fannish works.

    bookdal
    Ellen> Oh yeah, I was just speculating that when it comes to fanworks, the issue of property seems to be the most publicly contentious area.

    *Orlando_Jones
    The legal aspects seem confusing as I believe that to be a constantly moving target. I'm unaware of specific case law that has determined things conclusively.

    Miraba_phone
    Of course, there's differences when you move to another country re: selling fanworks. See Japan.

    *Diane D.
    bookdal> Well, when you're the licensor, the desire to protect your income source is possibly understandable.

    *EllenKushner
    bookdal> Indeed. What happens when you leave it? What else is contentious & important, do you think?

    Lielac
    Bookdal> Like this one author whose name I can't recall who compared people writing fanfic about her books to robbing her. I... don't even under*stand* that. Isn't imitation the sincerest form of flattery?

    Eli M.
    Orlando> Have you seen that in practice at all? (Young people being less afraid to strike out with their own ideas.)

    enchantedsleeper
    gabby > Do you think that if fanworks became easier to monetise, that would fundamentally alter what a fanwork is at base?

    Miraba_phone
    Well, the only lawsuit cas

    Valerie
    I believe that was Anne Rice?

    Miraba_phone
    The only lawsuit I know of was about the HP Lexicon.

    Renaissance
    Lielac> that same author also compared fanfiction to selling her children into slavery, as I recall.

    enchantedsleeper
    I was going to guess Robin Hobb. She's also very anti-fanfic.

    Lielac
    I mean, giving credit where credit is due to who created the universe, and then playing in the sandbox and offering it up to other fans for free... I don't see a problem.

    *Diane D.
    Re Young Wizards for example: I know that people are going to do fanwork in that universe. But if someone was to start trying to sell it... I would take, shall we say, a dim view.

    *Orlando_Jones
    Eli M> I think I see that every day based on what shows up on my Tumblr dash. Slash is a perfect example. I'm sure it was always there but seems far more accepted and embraced now which I think is very positive.

    Oriza
    I think the least gray area in terms of legality is with the creator of the universe. That's why I hesitate to criticize any particular creator-- technically, it's their work, they have the right to dictate what people can and cannot do with it.

    Lielac
    Valerie, enchantedsleeper> Pfff, them too then.

    gabby
    Enchantedsleeper-> you know, I can feel my own bias rising in my guts at the very notion of monetizing fanworks across the board. I've been in media fandom for 20 years or so, and am so married to the idea of it as a gift economy.

    Lielac
    Renaissance> ... now that I don't recall.

    *Orlando_Jones
    Leilac> In principal I agree with you. I imagine there may be some justifiable arguments to that point but not come to mind.

    enchantedsleeper
    gabby > It's interesting, because I have the same knee-jerk negative reaction against people who contend that fanworks should never be monetised, ever

    Miraba_phone
    I'd guess Robin as well, although it's been years since I looked at her stuff.

    CollectivaDiva
    orlando>it is a testament to the younger gen feeling more free to express themselves and to be honest in some form of media, about who they are and what is important to them

    bookdal
    Ellen> I think the other important conversations have to do with the commons and the changing concept of what belongs to the author and what, by publication, becomes malleable enough to be coopted, if that makes sense? I think digital landscapes have just made those lines more public and as consequence, more open to discussion.

    gabby
    hah! and i don't think it shouldn't ever! but i do have a lot of love for the culture of media fandom that has given me so much as a writer and a fan.

    enchantedsleeper
    gabby > I mean c'mon, people are making money out of them anyway, with Star Wars books and Austen adaptations; let's just open the floodgates and let fanworks benefit from the boost in legitimacy. It's not going to ruin fanworks

    Renaissance
    In certain issues I've noticed it's not even the risk of losing revenue from their property so much as the entire protective idea of other people playing in their sandbox, as it were.

    *Orlando_Jones
    CollectivaDiva> Agreed. They creative expression I've been exposed to is fascinating and a lot of fun.

    jenna
    collectivediva> i think it depends on how popular a work is, and how old it is. (which certainly ties into the legality issue). something that's public domain, for instance, is usually also more well-known by the public and so it becomes for acceptable to transform it if it's already a part of the general culture.
    i also think that part of how "acceptable" a transformed work is can depend on the subject matter that the transformed work is dealing with, and whether that subject matter is considered acceptable or not.

    Oriza
    enchantedsleeper> not that I'm one of them, but I know a lot of people who'd disagree with you :P

    about it "ruining the fanworks" at least

    enchantedsleeper
    Oriza> I'm sure you do, and so do I! I'd happily take them all on in a debate xD

    gabby
    enchantedsleeper -> although, with licensed works like that, there is still...there's editorial pressure. Diane, you could speak to this, yeah? Generally speaking, you can't write a licensed Star Trek novel about, say, Spock's orchid-penis, or everybody cannibalizing McCoy.

    alerie
    It's interesting that some things seem to be acceptable to monetize (fan artwork/posters/t-shirts) but some things are not (fiction/video adaptations.)

    Angela Nichols
    Panelists, Including the encouraging creative environments you've seen form around fan works, have there been any other notable changes you’ve seen regarding fandom and fanworks? Are there any things that have endured, or that you think may never change, since your first encounter

    gabby
    granted, I'm coming at this a lot from the comics angle-- the limits of what Marvel and DC editorial will allow with licensed characters vs the freedom you have as a fan to explore.

    CollectivaDiva
    jenna>so works like sherlock holmes, for instance, are more acceptable because they have been adapted numerous times over the years, but the sexualized aspects, such as johnlock, create a more taboo piece of work?

    enchantedsleeper
    gabby > Sure, there's copyright issues, but I'm not so sure those should exist

    *Diane D.
    Gabby> I can if CBS/Viacom asks me to. Care to lay odds? :)

    gabby
    heh

    *Diane D.
    (sorry, I somehow clandestinely keystroked out of the room, don't know how I did that...)

    *Orlando_Jones
    Wanted to share a project I'm involved in re: musical fanworks. As some of you may know, I self financed and created a graphic novel action comedy hybrid called Tainted Love last year. We're currently creating a soundtrack which we will release the stems for and then offer the fandom remixes for free alongside my mastered work.

    Anne J.
    #TeamOrchidPenis

    Oriza
    Valerie: it seems like that depends on the creator a lot of the time. I know the guy who does Homestuck pretty much refuses to let anyone sell fanart or fanworks independently aside from the ones listed in the official store.

    enchantedsleeper
    lmao!

    jenna
    collectivediva> precisely.

    *EllenKushner
    I think there's also a difference between the feelings (if not the rights) of a single author, who does indeed have a very personal relationship with her work - her world, her characters - as well as an economic one - and the Creations by Committee that are film & TV (not just writers/producers, but actors like our Mr Jones) - and concomitant economics that make all of us but GRRM look like street people….

    bookdal
    orlando> that's awesome and savvy

    Oriza
    Yet TV shows seem to have no problem with people selling fanart. Maybe because it helps get the word out and increases ratings? Plus they likely have a broader audience.

    enchantedsleeper
    Orlando > Amazing! That sounds like a very positive move

    *Orlando_Jones
    Angela? From my vantage point fandom is seeing mainstream acceptance like never before. The terms fangirl and fanboy used to be somewhat divisive and the community was looked down upon in certain respects. As the individual stakeholders become a more organized (or at least structured) presence fandom become a social movement of sorts. What has ultimately endured is the unbridled passion and enthusiasm around liking stuff. It has been co-opted by a wide range of influences and ideas (and I including my involvement in fandom as part of that) but the basic tenants hopefully endure now and always.

    Eli M.
    Literature is one of the few forms of media where you can have a single creator anymore.

    Renaissance
    gabby> Actually I'm surprised at the amount of fan-freedom Hasbro has been allowing with unofficial MLP merchandise made by fans and sold for profit, which should be in direct competition with Hasbro but they've been amazingly lax about C&Ding people!

    bookdal
    Oriza> I think that's another aspect as well. The fan as advertiser. The work as advertisement. Fandom as part of the goodwill value of a product.

    *EllenKushner
    In some ways, it's the same argument that's going on now about how available MUSIC should be: I know working musicians who must tour etc to keep their heads above water, since selling albums is not longer viable for income - but the Big Debate is about how we should all be free to download and cut out the corporations of the stars…..

    Lielac
    Oriza> Fanart's not usually as capable of replacing the need for a show as fanfic is, though. It's more like promotional material than a whole big story arc, a whole new season of a show like some fics I've read.

    Eli M.
    Renaissance> It's much more about them not quite knowing what to do about it than it is any kind of leniency on their part, though.

    *EllenKushner
    I am NOT trying to start that argument here!!!!!!

    Oriza
    bookdal> I think Hannibal, or at least the official Hannibal tumblr, actually just did something where they allowed fanartists to submit their work for a chance to be used as official promo material.

    *Diane D.
    Truly, though, the first time I crossed the line from Trek fanwriter to Trek writer-for-money, it wasn't even with much forethought. I'd simply read something by another pro writer that made me SO FURIOUS that I wanted to jump in and do it professionally for the first time. I felt strongly that I could eat a ream of typing paper and BARF a better novel than the one I'd just read.

    Oriza
    Which I thought was a really good idea. NBC gets free promo stuff, the fanartists get a bigger audience and credit, and everyone wins.

    enchantedsleeper
    Renaissance> I heard (though I don't follow MLP myself) that MLP even changed the name of a character based on what the fans nicknamed it, and gave it a bigger role

    Lielac
    DD> -cackle-

    *EllenKushner
    Just trying to point out that when we're talking about fan work based on a Robin Hobb or Diane Duane, it may be a slightly different conversation from a HARRY POTTER or TEEN WOLF ;)

    CollectivaDiva
    orlando>i def agree fandom is a social movement. look at what the cas fans fandom did for misha collins this week on twitter and with the show ratings! it is amazing what determined folks can do.

    Eli M.
    Renaissance> They've made it very clear to some fan organizations right where the line is and what happens if they cross it.

    enchantedsleeper
    Renaissance> But that kicked up a whole slew of issues due to the dodgy way in which the character was portrayed...

    Laura J.
    (morecackle)

    bookdal
    Oriza> Supernatural is now running a contest for fanwork being used in their merchandise. It's really becoming more a part of the social media goodwill value, I guess?

    jenna
    oriza> yeah, and doctor who hired alice x zhang to do their official promo art after seeing her fanworks

    gabby
    Oriza -> Lord, I wish Marvel would do that for their movie posters.

    Renaissance
    Eli M.> That too, but I also think there's a bit of what Lielac just said: they've got an unexpected demographic of consumers and don't want to alienate the potential work-of-mouth advertising.

    Oriza
    jenna> Oh yeah, I forgot about that!

    *Diane D.
    Ellen> Well, of course, because Young Wizards fandom is superior in all possible ways. (grin)

    gabby
    Do y'all know if the fanartists are getting paid for this?

    Lielac
    DD> Aww, thanks. Hehe.

    gabby
    Because, as a working writer..."f u, pay me" is my motto if someone's making money off it.

    *EllenKushner
    DD> It was…. it waaaaas… the CAT!

    Oriza
    gabby> That was the one thing-- I don't think so. But the tumblr made that very clear.

    And some people are fine with not being paid.

    *EllenKushner
    DD> That, too. ;)

    Lielac
    Gabby> Yep. Snarky motto here: "Exposure kills."

    jenna
    gabby> i think alice gets commission money?

    Anne J.
    The Lizzie Bennet Diaries people did a version of Sanditon--Austen's unfinished novel--in which fanworks became part of canon. There was some RP in setting up businesses in the town, and people sent in videos. I don't know if fans saw any profit from that use of their works. But I thought it was interesting.

    enchantedsleeper
    Certainly the creators of TV shows etc. are showing more willingness to make *use* of their fanbases when it suits them, but they don't always treat them with respect

    CollectivaDiva
    gabby>some of these fanfic writers and fanartists really should be getting paid. the work promotes original shows more than any commercial on network television

    Angela Nichols
    YA author John Green also had a contest and the art winner designed a cover for a reprint of his novel

    *Orlando_Jones
    Not sure if anyone is a fan but I think one of the coolest melding of fanworks and original creators is the Joseph Gordon Levitt site and TV Hit Record. I fangirl over what he's done there in a big way. It has almost brought tears to my eye a few times as everyone who participates in the final transformative work gets paid.

    Eli M.
    enchantedsleeper> There is the question then: what, if anything, do creators "owe" their fanbases?

    gabby
    Orlando -> I saw an ad for that but didn't really understand what it was. Could you give us a soundbyte description?

    jenna
    ellen and diane, would you say that less mainstream or popular authors tend to be much more protective of their works? or would that depend on the author individually?

    Oriza
    enchantedsleeper> I agree, it can get very dodgy. I didn't see the end scenario of it, but I am pretty sure the artists at least got credited, as in the FB pages and stuff were like "Go check out so-and-so's art at xxx.tumblr.com".

    Lielac
    enchantedsleeper> And being disrespectful of your fans is inevitably going to come back to bite you, because word'll get around that the creators of such-and-such are jerks don't give them attention and then oops where did your viewers go?

    Angela Nichols
    Anne J > Lizzie Bennet kind of opens up a whole new discussion of interactive creations

    Oriza
    They may also have been paid, I don't know, but I don't think so.

    enchantedsleeper
    Lielac> I wish I could say that always happens, but Sherlock (BBC) still seems to be doing well... there's been a cooling-off of interest towards it, but that's more to do with the writing quality than fan-issues

    CollectivaDiva
    orlando>that is really cool re: JGL. for a writer or artist, to get paid is such validation. regardless, we keep up the good fight because we're compelled to continue creating.

    *EllenKushner
    Jenna> I think it's individual. It really is very personal.

    *Orlando_Jones
    gabby> It's basically crowd sourced creative works. Levitt or someone on the site comes up with an idea. It's posted in a forum where different artists contribute elements (sound, animation, vidoe, music) and it's edited and put together into a final product that is broadcast, packaged, sold, etc. If your work is used (even one drawing) you get paid.

    *Diane D.
    jenna> I think you have to judge on an author-by-author basis. There can be quite deep-rooted stuff going on. The difficulty begins when you go to film or TV and increasing numbers of people and increasing amounts of $$$$$ ar4e involved.

    Oriza
    Orlando> I've been following that and I think it's a great example of how creators, fans and artists can work together. It reminded me a little bit of your Tainted Love soundtrack technique.

    Angela Nichols
    I just want to welcome anyone who has joined us during the first half hour. If you want to send out a message on your social media accounts about the chat, that would be great! We’d just like to ask that if you are using twitter or tumblr to please use the #ao3million hashtag so that we can track and retweet/reblog comments on OTW accounts

    bookdal
    I also think that fandom has its own economy that is not strictly monetary - feedback as compensation, to a degree.

    Lielac
    enchantedsleeper> ... Fair point. Also Doctor Who, naming no names -coumoffatgh-

    gabby
    Orlando-> THAT IS SO FREAKING COOL

    enchantedsleeper
    Lielac> He seems to be the common thread in a lot of fan-controversy x3

    Lielac
    Moffat is terrible. Just. Ugh why

    *EllenKushner
    …and I think we're all still a bit confused about the legal ramifications of it all. We've heard Scary Stories, most of them not substantiated, but kind of Ghostly HItchiker for the Struggling Author . . .. . . You know: DON'T OPEN THE CAR DOOR!!!!

    jenna
    lielac> idk, i'm not sure that treating fans badly necessarily turns people off of the show/canon. especially in very very popular shows like spn or sherlock. i agree that in general it's a bad idea to disrespect your fans, but i've definitely seen a lot of times where really big shows sort of brush their fans off and don't see any negative repercussions for it.

    Kamela
    Orlando> That is an excellent idea and it's awesome in the way it lets fans contribute to the final product!

    Bertha C.
    It's hitrecord.org for anyone who's interested in Joseph Gordon-Levitt's company that Orlando mentioned.

    *EllenKushner
    orlando> yay!

    Fuurou
    And the hitRECord episodes are on YouTube, if you guys were curious. They were streamed and premiered on a new TV channel called Pivot.

    Network, I should say.

    Bertha C.
    And they're constantly crowdsourcing materials on Tumblr and Twitter as well.

    gabby
    jenna-> true. on the other hand, i think shows like the ~*~*amaaaaazing*~*~ Sleepy Hollow, see a real, measurable difference in their success by fully embracing and encouraging fans

    jenna
    hitRECord is such a cool project <3

    Renaissance
    Orlando> That sounds very utopian but I just can't believe we live in the sort of copyright environment where that could thrive as a business model.

    Angela Nichols
    With things like JGL's project and Lizzie Bennet Diaries coming around and really changing the rules, What are some things you’d like to see happen — or not happen — with fanworks in the future?

    *Orlando_Jones
    Fanworks should not have specific/undue influence over the creative choices that "creators" make. It needs to continue to function as its own ecosystem that co-exists with canon but also has autonomy to be critical, to explore themes and ideas that creators cannot (or will not) make due to the commercial nature/necessity of premium IP. In addition, critical/academic analysis is useful and places original works in a larger social and cultural construct but when it crosses the line into confrontation, acrimony, and accusation that pits one group of fans against another in a circular echo chamber of one upmanship, shaming and outrage it reinforces the negative perception of fans and their occasionally myopic perspective.

    Lielac
    jenna> Hmm. Yeah, with things that have serious momentum like SPN or BBC Sherlock, it's... well. They have *momentum*. I think I'm trying to say there's a significant enough casual audience that doesn't have much of anything to do with the fannish world that gets disrespected?

    Oriza
    There's a tumblr at hitRECORDjoe.tumblr.com as well
    Actually I think that might be JGL's personal tumblr but most of it is hitRECORD

    enchantedsleeper
    Angela> More of all of that! More rule-changing, more legitimacy, more participation and exposure

    *Orlando_Jones
    Renaissance> It seems to be working so far. Just to be clear, I don't think the fans are getting a lionshare of revenue and there might be an argument that what they're getting is below market value but as bookdal and others have mentioned I think there are other factors at work besides compensation.

    Oriza
    Lielac> That brings up the divide between the "casuals" and the "fans". Especially on the internet there's been some concerning backlash against the "filthy casuals" when it comes to things like comics, TV shows, books, and such. It's been discussed to death but I think it's still something to keep in mind.

    Lielac
    Oriza> "Aaaah, fandom elitism. -sigh-" is all I'll say on *that* for the moment.

    Eli M.
    What about the question of creators creating fannish works in their own worlds? Is that possible? DD, your 30-day challenge butts up against this, and for Orlando, actors and writers talking "off-the-record" (say, on social media) about what they think underlies their characters/plots (even if it's not borne out to be canon) also push up against this.

    *Orlando_Jones
    Oriza> I find that distinction disappointing and with an undercurrent of judgement. It implies that fans have a right to decide what constitutes being a fan which is silly IMHO.

    gabby
    Oriza-> whoa, I've somehow avoided all that! Does it refer to "the casual viewer"?

    *EllenKushner
    When we were 14 we of course sent our great idea for a Star Trek spinoff (concerning a starship staffed entirely by teenage girls) to Paramount. How sad that there was no Orlando Jones at the time!

    jenna
    lielac>that makes sense, sadly. the problem with dismissing more serious fans is that you also end us dismissing some of the more serious issues/controversies that arise with those sorts of shows.

    CollectivaDiva
    gabby>shows like sleepy hollow, arrow and hannibal, that are newer, are seeing the positive effect fandom has on ratings and the presence on tumblr and twitter and taking advantage of it like the older ones, sherlock and spn, didn't do from the beginning. now, spn is all over the place, but they started small and the fandom created the network of fans.

    jenna
    ellen> i'd watch that show!! haha

    *Diane D.
    Oriza> Seriously, are non-fannish viewers often characterized as "filthy casuals"? Tsk. It's the wizards-vs-Muggles thing all over again.

    Lielac
    Speeds up entropy, fandom elitism does.

    ... Oops, I turned into Yoda.

    CollectivaDiva
    gabby>with the new shows, they start at the source of the ratings--tumblr, twitter, FB--and move out from there to create a fanbase along side realying amazing shows.

    Molly P.
    When I was younger I always felt like my feelings and emotions about media I consumed (at that stage, almost exclusively books) weren't being validated by those around me. You were supposed to read the book and once you got to the final page, that was it. You moved on to the next book. It wasn't until later, much later (I'm talking a decade. I didn't get into fandom until 5 years ago when I was 19)that I found that there was actually loads of people who wanted to discuss and explore and interact with the media they consumed on a much deeper level. I find fandom, especially fanfiction, to be a really liberating experience because it personalises a thing that you already love and it gives you a deeper sense of connection to it. It doesn't have to end when the credits roll or you close the book on the last page.

    *Diane D.
    Lielac> (shrugs) As one does.

    *EllenKushner
    >Eli M. > YOu fascinate me. WTF?? Oh - do you just mean actors giving us their Character Notes? ;)

    Renaissance
    Diane D> I am like the most casual fan of everything ever and I totally get called a Muggle. :)

    Molly P.
    Oh god, that got really long I'm so sorry.

    Oriza
    Oh gosh, I didn't mean to imply that I felt like that at all. Sorry! I should clarify-- I guess I was trying to refer to that feeling of needing to prove oneself as an actual fan.

    Angela Nichols
    Eli M > Scott Westerfeld created a bonus chapter for his latest series but insists that it is fanficion

    *Orlando_Jones
    Eli M> I wrestle with that in a way. I think that Trollando is a fannish work of sorts. I still see many who view my presence in fandom with derision and suspicion. I don't particularly care but it is funny that I seem to need to keep "proving" my bona fides. I was a fan LONG before I was on the TVs.

    Quietborderline
    About the crowd-sourcing idea, I believe the people who are making that live action Jem movie (which I personally think is ridiculous even though I loved the cartoon when I was younger, but that's IMHO) are crowd-sourcing a lot of things as well (including the role of Jem, but also costume design and things like that) if I remember correctly. So I do think things are, slowly, starting to move in that sort of direction. Or at least a lot more people are testing the waters, which I think is pretty cool

    Anne J.
    I do think that all of the work-for-pay and official recognition/corporate sponsored fanworks (as we've seen w/some boy bands), Kindle Worlds--all that is different from fan communities who often have a much more critical stance towards their sources than those kinds of partnerships could really sustain. But Mr. Jones has a way of meeting fandom in its own spaces on its own terms--including the critical stance, at times--that is really, really interesting to me.

    Kamela
    Molly> Long, but true! I've gone through the same thing! :)

    Claudia R.
    The fake geek actor instead of the fake geek girl :(

    Eli M.
    Ellen> A lot of actors recently seem much more willing or able to talk about what they want to see happen with their characters, even if they have no idea if it's in the cards - that's the sort of thing I'm talking about.

    gabby
    Orlando-> And I think that's something that's...it's a double-edged sword. On the one hand, why should it matter if you hadn't been in fandom before? You're rocking it now, and that's awesome. On the other hand, ONE OF US ONE OF US ONE OF US

    enchantedsleeper
    Molly P> Don't apologise, that was a really good comment. I definitely agree with the idea that the piece of art doesn't have to end when the credits roll

    jenna
    my main problem with fandom elitism is that by creating divides within the fandom, not only does it create a kind of toxic atmosphere for casual fans, but it becomes this weird sort of hyper-sensitive space where serious issues aren't discussed because the focus turns to an us versus them mentality

    Valerie
    Molly, exactly! I relate to that.

    Oriza
    Sometimes I feel as though I'm either too fannish, because I love something too much, or not fannish enough because I don't know very small things about the body of work. E.g. Star Trek-- I've got enough knowledge to be able to get really goddamn excited when the Star Trek exhibit came to my hometown, but not enough to pilot the Enterprise, and sometimes I feel like I'm either fangirling too much or too litle.

    *EllenKushner
    jenna> And you would have loved it!! Writing those stories for my friends, with their Starship selves as the leads, was a whole Course in Writing for me: I learned about pacing, and dialogue, and most particularly characterization: Trying to capture those very distinctive selves on the page . . . I'm sure it still has a certain primitive charm & , er, vigor.

    Eli M.
    Angela> That kind of thing too! Can he even claim that? And what does it *mean*?

    *EllenKushner
    Angela> Eli > Oh, yay! Scott is no fool. Good man.

    Oriza
    Eli> I'd say he totally can, it's his work, he can be a fan of his own work, can't he? ;)

    bookdal
    I would say that the division between casual "viewer" and fan "participant" emerges partly from the sense of fans being a traditionally marginalized community. And now that fandom has become a broader discussion, those prejudices are bound to inspire defensive posturing, on both sides.

    enchantedsleeper
    I think the blurring of lines between "fan" and "creator" is something we'll see more in the future of fanworks - does anyone else agree?

    Katherine K.
    I do

    *Diane D.
    (half sec, knock on door)

    abigail89
    Has anyone's nasty encounter with fandom elitism with a show/book/etc. caused them to abandon it?

    BlameMyMuses
    I think a lot of people turn to fandom because IRL they feel like they're "other" or unwelcome...for there to be an us-vs-them mentality in-fandom kind of defeats the safe haven a lot of us seek via fellow fans and online interaction.

    Renaissance
    For non-fans--for myself, at any rate and I've heard others express the notion--there is a slight feeling that one cannot be a casual fan, or that one might like to be fan of something if it didn't mean, y'know, wading through fandom.

    Alena
    Oriza > But it's always going to be treated differently than if he'd posted it on AO3 under a pseudonym, I think.

    jenna
    ellen> i liked how you refered to your friends and their "starship selves"! that really hits on what to me is the most important part of transforming a work: finding your place within an already established universe, and writing your own narrative (giving yourself more agency over your destiny)

    Miraba_tablet
    I think a lot of this is related to the social geek fallacy.

    Eli M.
    Isn't everyone a casual fan in the beginning?

    *EllenKushner
    Orlando> Well, of course you were! We are not reborn, like the Phoenix, in a new skin once we're public! Not really. Giant love for the Quarterback who's also a giant fan (crap, how can I have forgotten my Secret Husband's name??).

    Alena
    Ellen > Chris Kluwe? I think he's a lot of people's Secret Husband.

    Aru
    I think what puts some fans off about having creators in fandom is that we often create work to please ourselves or friends, not meant to be part of the canon - it can feel like our parents reading out diary?

    bookdal
    Eli M. > I would wonder about that - I've been a fan of many texts and involved in a few fan communities, but I think of myself as a fan first before I think of myself as a fan of something.

    Kamela
    Orlando> I agree with you thinking Trollando it's a fannish work in a way. The other day it popped up and I was curious to see what "Trollando" even was. But it's good to see that regardless, you're still a fan no matter how people view your presence in fandom!

    enchantedsleeper
    That's true, Aru.

    *EllenKushner
    Eli> Yeah, that's cool. I'd love to know what >ORLANDO, as a professional actor, thinks of that trend? Does it break unwritten rules? break training?

    gabby
    Random example of mainstreaming fanworks: The Hairpin published a piece of Velveteen Rabbit horror short fiction a few days back. Great read.

    Miraba_tablet
    Aru> I think that's a good point.

    Angela Nichols
    I love Scott's bonus chapter, in my head its a real as anything in the books but I love Eli's what does it *mean* question because he can't tell me what to believe is true, can he?

    Lielac
    Okay, I've gotta go, my body is informing me that sleep is sorely needed and the multiple threads of the chat are making my head spin. Thanks for having this thing exist!

    Molly P.
    BlameMyMuses > that was certainly the case for me. As a young queer girl who loved books and suffered from acute anxiety, my first online fandom (Law and Order: SVU) was one of the first times I felt like I was surrounded by people like me.

    Eli M.
    bookdal> A fan first, as in, just a general fan of everything?

    jenna
    abigail89> for me, comics are the ultimate fandom elitism trap. especially as a woman, i get really nervous about proclaiming my love for marvel or dc, because i haven't read ALL of the comics and i got introduced to most of the canon through the movie adaptations. fear of being called out on being a faker definitely makes me hesitate to actually try and join any comic fandoms.

    *EllenKushner
    Alena> The two-timer!!!! (yep, that's him)

    gabby
    jenna-> as a lifelong comics fan, i feel you so hard on that.

    enchantedsleeper
    Re: casual and non-casual fans, a friend of mine recently expressed frustration that whenever she gets too deep into fandom and finds out about unpleasant little details like the prejudices of the creators (*couMoffatgh*) it spoils the work for her, and she doesn't like to get involved in that and would rather just enjoy the work for its own merits, regardless of what the creators and the fans are like. Whereas I find that sort of thing very hard to turn a blind eye too. I used to be able to ignore it, but not any more
    *to

    Eli M.
    Angela> Maybe it's like Clue's "but here's what really happened"...

    Miraba_tablet
    Molly> I think that for a lot of queer people who don't have a local network, finding an online community can be very much like that.

    Quietborderline
    Orlando > that is something I will never understand. Like you said "I was a fan long before I was on TV" I think that's true of a lot of people. I saw a headcanon type thing once that had a certain person as someone who wrote fanfiction and it got so much hate because it was "so unrealistic." And I remember not understanding why. I am a fangirl, I write fanfiction, etc. It's a huge part of who I am. But one of my dreams was to become an actress. If I had, I don't think I would have stopped being who I was just because I was now 'one of them' or some nonsense. I don't think being put in the public eye necessarily changes those things about you... do you have to sell your soul to be in the industry? ;) The whole idea that there is an "us" and a "them" in regard to celebrity (or anything, really) bothers me greatly. We are all just humans trying to deal with this thing called life. And I praise you and anyone who works to close that divide just a little bit.

    bookdal
    Eli. M> As in I've always (since I can recall) approached reading/viewing as a way to participate in that text in some way, not just consume. For me fandom goes beyond consumption. That's just my view, of course.

    *EllenKushner
    bookdal> "I think of myself as a fan first before I think of myself as a fan of something." --- WOW - YES!! A HUGE DISTINCTION for many people. I had had no experience of "FAN" as a way of life/self-identifier til I entered publishing . . . It's fascinating. And a critical distinction that a lot of people walk right into unknowing...

    CollectivaDiva
    abigail>i don't talk to anyone about my love of doctor who except the anonymous internet. i stopped wanting to discuss the finer points of the Whoniverse when i realized the whovians i know are rude, obnoxious and elitist. it is sad, but true.

    Eli M.
    enchantedsleeper> +1, the issue of a creator's views tainting the work is a big one. I loved the Ender series as a kid but I don't like to touch it anymore. There's a definite dilemma there.

    gabby
    What do people thing defines a "fannish" way of interacting with texts as opposed to...non-fannish?

    Kamela
    Jenna> I definitely agree with that. I was surrounded by my guy friends and mentioned that I love Marvel and DC, and I instantly was bombarded with questions about EVERYTHING. I couldn't explain that I'd gotten a lot of imforamtion about a lot of the universes from fanwork and the movie adaptations. It makes me cautious to tell people I'm a fan of anything because of things like that.

    Alena
    enchantedsleeper> It can also work the other way (ish)--my first contact with SPN was a critical fanvid played at WisCon about how all the ladies turn evil/die, and it put me off the show for life, I know lots of fans of it but I just can't

    enchantedsleeper
    Alena> Yes, that is a very big problem with SPN for sure
    Eli M.> Ah yes, I've heard about that - I want to read 'Ender's Game' because I've heard great things about it as a work (and now there's a film adaptation!) but Orson Scott Card is just... ugh

    Eli M.
    Ellen> bookdal> It's interesting. I kind of compare that to wanting to the fact that a few of my friends and I are happy to work for or organize conventions even when we're not actually interested in the subject matter at the con itself. Servicing a greater community or ecosystem...

    Kamela
    Quietborderline> Nicely said! :)

    jenna
    eli> ugh yes i was so upset to learn about orson scott card's bigotry. it's hard to find the line between what the work itself represents and promotes, and what the author intends to represent and promote.

    Oriza
    Alena> one of the more concerning things about that show is how all the ladies die. Yet sometimes I feel as though it's impossible to discuss that issue because the fans are so strong that no one is willing to admit that it could have flaws. I feel like that can be a big problem in fandom, actually, that there's a difference between slamming something and admitting that it has flaws.

    Renaissance
    gabby> Most of my feelings have been to take things I like and dissect them to itty-bitty bits with people who know them as well as I do, and then completely forget about them 99% of the time.

    *EllenKushner
    re. the Scott Westerfeld thing: I'm FULL of little fragments about my world & SWORDSPOINT (+sequels) characters that I'm dying to write down - but I have so far refused to let myself. My challenge to myself has always been: "You're allowed to write them if you can turn them into elegant little(isn) short stories that someone who's never heard of your novels can read with pleasure." Should I re-think this?

    Angela Nichols
    CollectivaDiva > Melissa > I've had some rather interesting discussions with irl whovians as well

    *EllenKushner
    Eli> I think I love you.

    CollectivaDiva
    alena>the fanbase of spn consists of middle aged married women (i am one) who want these boys all to themselves. i think the writers take it too far, because as a fan who wants the winchesters all to herself, i would still like to see some smart, nonsexualized female characters on the show. FELICIA DAY kicks ass as charlie, and i think they have tried to create something special with her.

    Laura J.
    Ellen-- yes. Fragments are tasty. Chum for new buyers. Lets us see more of the character.

    Valerie
    enchantedsleeper> Generally in cases like Card, I feel a reluctance to support those sorts of creators financially. Their work itself might be inoffensive, but I don't want to reward them for their off-duty declarations.

    *Diane D.
    (sorry, had to deal with visitor, back now...)

    Oriza
    CD> I would love to see more Felicia Day-esque characters on that show, and the fact that she's taken off like she has seems like a good sign.,

    Renaissance
    Ellen> Er, you may be one of those authors I dissect to itty-bitty bits, so I'm biased on this question.

    Alena
    Oriza> The person who made that fanvid obviously loves the show but wanted to critique it, I think that's one place fanvids are really powerful--using the show itself against it--but I have no place in the conversation as someone who's never seen the show

    Eli M.
    Ellen> Some people write fanfic. Some people juggle geese. <3

    bookdal
    Eli M> Yes! Exactly....a fan can even do the reblogging work of fandom, but for me it really is about a level of participation and community building that defines fandom.

    Oriza
    Alena> That's really good to hear, I love that show but I'm more than willing to admit it has a lot of problems.

    CollectivaDiva
    oriza>alaina huffman is also amazing, smart, talented and well received by fans of the show.

    jenna
    like, i was really inspired as a kid by how empathetic ender was, and how he used his unique perspective to try and really understand other people no matter how strange/different their customs are (especially in speaker of the dead!!)
    so it really REALLY threw me off to learn how bigoted and prejudiced the author was, when his own works encouraged such extreme understanding of others.

    gabby
    Alena-> yes! and fanworks as criticisms of the source text are, i think, one of the great strengths of the medium.

    Laura J.
    Surely we all write haracter who are better than we are, ourselves...

    BlameMyMuses
    (okay, gotta go, bus to catch...gonna try and get on mobile, but if it doesn't work, it's been lovely and I'll look forward to reading the transcript!)

    Angela Nichols
    Ellen > I'm always a sucker for "deleted scenes" and extra trivia

    *EllenKushner
    DD> We missed you!

    Eli M.
    bookdal > But the problem there is that it almost encourages gatekeeping: "Well, what do *you* do for the fandom?" It's a thing everyone has to keep an eye on, which is why I'm glad people are shining a spotlight on "fake geek girl" BS, etc.

    Oriza
    CD> I didn't see too much written about her, so I can't judge. Abbadon bothered me a bit, though, because IIRC she was very sexualized? Although it's been a while since I've seen those episodes.

    Alena
    Ellen> You told me some of it at WisCon YEARS ago I think and it's still part of my headcanon so my vote is yes because I think others would also like that as part of their view of the universe...maybe "extras" on your website?

    gabby
    there's a story a close friend of mine wrote, called No One Makes It Out, about, basically, "what if Tony Stark was born working class?" that's the most amazing critical look at Iron Man, and at the military and industrial complex, that I've read in years

    jenna
    gabby> especially because fandoms have such a different focus compared to the actual showrunners. fans don't have to care about marketability, they just have to care about quality.

    *Diane D.
    Ellen> Our landlord stopped by. A sweet man but I can't just say BUGGER OFF I'M IN CHAT. :)

    Alena
    CollectivaDiva> My closest SPN fan friends are early 20s queer people, so, that's not the whole fanbase! But yes, that's part of it too I think.

    Oriza
    jenna> Good point. There's a lot at stake, and a lot of players, in TV show creations, compared to fan writers.

    Eli M.
    jenna> (and others) Shouldn't quality translate to marketability?

    enchantedsleeper
    EllenKushner> I think that sounds fair, unless you can think of a better form to present those fragments in, like for example a backer reward for a Kickstarter, or an anthology, or maybe you could hand them out to the fans and let them create the short stories? That would be interesting, but in the end it's your call. J.K. Rowling took her fragments and turned them into Pottermore (amongst other things). Philip Pullman created the "lantern slides" in (I think) an edition of Lyra's Oxford (or was it The Amber Spyglass)? There's no set rule about what you should do with things like that. Make the most of having them!

    CollectivaDiva
    alena> THAT IS AWESOME.

    enchantedsleeper
    (Super late reply, took me too long to type out xD)

    *EllenKushner
    Angela et al> "Deleted scenes" - brilliant!!! There sure are some of those. And I'm like a Depression Era Housewife with my prose - I've got buckets of them. Hmmmm (wondering if WebMistress would kill me if I suggested whole new set of "Outtakes" pages……)

    zwol
    Re Card, people 'way back in the day on Usenet used to talk about "the Brain Eater" as a thing that happened to authors sometimes, where there was this very clear point in their oeuvre where the quality took a nosedive, and also, often, really messed up apparent authorial opinions started showing up in the text.

    Laura J.
    Oh Eli. A certain amout of Least Common Denominator. But it shouldn't be too low, you're right.

    bookdal
    Eli M.> I do think that's the danger, but I think to a degree, all communities have gatekeeping apparatuses, to their peril often, but I think that's just a condition of communal spaces. We can recognize them. We can try to challenge them but we will never eliminate them. That's the key - the ability to acknowledge the gates and then work at dismantling them, one by one.

    Oriza
    Eli> Quality means different things to different people, though. One person's quality may be a TV show full of queer warrior princesses, whereas another's may be two white guys searching for the Holy Grail.

    *EllenKushner
    DD> Yeah, that would be what is known in the Business as a Tactical Error

    zwol
    It happens to be my opinion that this happened to Card right after _Speaker for the Dead_. :-)

    Oriza
    Eli> therefore it's hard to market just based on quality because you have such a broad market to reach...

    Eli M.
    Quality is a hard thing to define at any rate, I agree.

    Oriza
    Eli> at least in my opinion! I've never tried to market anything though I don't know much :0

    gabby
    Also important to note that, in my experience, fanworks-creating-fandom is woman-dominated, and the media we're reworking and transforming is male-dominated as an industry. Taking apart that male gaze, or bringing what makes it male into focus, is a great thing a lot of critical fanwork does, which is very hard to get a platform for in the industry, where you'd be working against editorial will and the need to make $.

    CollectivaDiva
    ORIZA>i don't think the writers of spn will ever be able to escape their own misogyny. robbie thompson is great, he writes some of the most well received eps, writes felicia day brilliantly and the bond between D&C.

    Alena
    gabby> re: Iron Man fic--looking that up to read, thanks!

    jenna
    eli> i think it SHOULD translate to marketability, but usually doesn't! because the things fans criticize about the work, are often things that seem perfectly acceptable to the showrunners, or are less important to the showrunners than the idea of heightening drama/tension (i'm specifically thinking here about the high rates of character death amoung women and POC on tv, but it certainly applies to other issues as well)

    enchantedsleeper
    gabby> a thousand times yes

    Oriza
    BTW, I just finished reading that Velveteen Rabbit horror short story someone posted. Lord. I'm not sleeping for a while now, not with my stuffed rabbit in the room anymore

    gabby
    Alena-! yay! it's one of my favorite stories. ever. she's a brilliant writer.

    enchantedsleeper
    Oriza> Haha, I need to scroll back up and find the link to that, or maybe I shouldn't...?
    Oriza> I love my soft toys u__u

    Eli M.
    bookdal> re: gatekeeping, the other side to that, though, is that gatekeeping can, at its best, function to make sure (or help) that the community is a safer space than outside. Though I can see people disagreeing that that assertion...

    Oriza
    jenna> yes! exactly! just look at hannibal and what happened in the last episode (I won't mention it outright because spoilers, but a certain POC dies that set off a lot of criticism)

    Angela Nichols
    Gabby > great point about gender in media

    Eli M.
    I don't think that's true in a lot of fannish communities right now, though.

    gabby
    of course, being critical of male gaze isn't necessarily accomplished by fandom's preoccupation with white cis hetero-normative slash pairings. but. that's a whole nother bucket of worms.

    *EllenKushner
    Orlando> You still there? I really am curious to know what the Industry thinks about actors discussing their characters outside the performance space. Is there any tradition of this pre-dating "fan work" talk? If not, how's the shift going?

    CollectivaDiva
    gabby>TRUTH

    Chick C.
    (I've been worrying, trying to find a good way to enter in but I guess now is a good a time as any). As a queer person in general, SPN is problematic, but one element I can appreciate about it as a person in the aromantic spectrum is its tendency to put platonic love over romantic. I've written quite a few pieces on Dean Winchester being aro-spectrum by what we're given on the show, and the Winchesters being each other's primary platonic partners

    jenna
    gabby> re: women in fandom - precisely this!! it's so incredibly frustrating to me as a fan, because it's so hard to find women to identify with on screen. i have to turn to fandom to see the female characters i love actually fleshed out into real well-rounded characters.

    Fuurou
    Gabby > Alena > Speaking of awesome works, you guys should check out Teyke's Undone Saga. It's a hell of a read, and it features the best Tony Stark PoV I've ever read. It's ongoing.

    *Diane D.
    Orlando> WHAT SHE SAID. Much curiosity.

    Chick C.
    There's just so few "platonic partners" in media, vs. "bromance", which isn't the same thing at all

    Aru
    The controversy about Beverly on Hannibal is a good example: the network didn't want to show Hannibal beating up on a woman, whereas fandom is upset that we didn't get to see her fight

    enchantedsleeper
    Chick C.> Interesting! I hadn't thought about things that way

    Oriza
    Aru> I...didn't mention the name of the character to avoid spoiling it but alrighty then

    *EllenKushner
    Alena> So maybe it should just remain an Oral Tradition? To be all Retro? ;)

    bookdal
    I'd add to that question for Orlando and ask what he has found the general overall consensus of his peers to be w/regards to fans and fandom?

    jenna
    gabby> re slash - OH LORD that conversation would take a year and a half. soo many issues to discuss, and so little time to do it!

    gabby
    fuuro-> thanks, i'll look for it!

    enchantedsleeper
    Oriza> Aru> Ah, spoilers are part and parcel of fandom discussions, never mind ;3

    Chick C.
    enchantedsleeper> It's a topic that's very dear to me! I'm pretty starved for aromatnic characters that aren't emotionally blank haha

    Molly P.
    I quit watching SPN years ago because the disproportionate amount of women and POC killed. Recently quit Teen Wolf for the same reason. I haven't watched the last two episodes of Hannibal because I'm worried it's going to make me want to quit watching that too and it's such a pretty show, I don't want to lose it.

    Kamela
    Ellen> That's a good question! Agreed!

    Katherine K.
    Aru> I couldn't agree more, that could have been an incredible fight scene, even if she dies.

    Eli M.
    +1 for wanting to know Orlando's answers to these questions...

    Oriza
    enchantedsleep: Fair enough! I think so far Hannibal's done a good job with most of the female characters-- not sexualizing them and not sexualizing their deaths. Unfortunately yes, most of the dead people are female, but they're not raped, they're just, you know, stabbed to death. (Which is so much better ;) )

    *Orlando_Jones
    Hey everyone SO SORRY. My internet took a complete crap on me. What did I miss.

    enchantedsleeper
    Chick C.> What's your penname? I'd be interested to read your pieces, if they're online that is

    *Diane D.
    Ellen> Ask him again.

    *EllenKushner
    Seriously, though: I'm so freakin' lazy, if I got props for every little bit of hot R&A dialogue I posted in an Outtakes section, I"m afraid I would just sink into LOVE ME LOVE ME alla time and never get to the real work for me.

    gabby
    It's funny, I actually never started watching Hannibal because my impression from Tumblr was that it was entirely about these two white dudes, so I just had no interest. Now I found out there's women?? And even PoC women???? I would never have known, from a cursory look a the fandom.

    jenna
    orlando> you've missed EVERYTHING haha :)

    Oriza
    And the creator has specifically talked about how he wanted more women in the Hannibal series, and he changed a bunch of the characters from male to female. Which was great.

    Angela Nichols
    That's the first hour of the chat. I want to thank Orlando, I believe he has to leave us soon. If you are just joining us welcome and remember if you want to send out a message on your social media accounts about the chat, that would be great! We’d just like to ask that if you are using twitter or tumblr to please use the #ao3million hashtag so that we can track and retweet/reblog comments on OTW accounts.

    hantedsleeper
    But Orlando just got back! :(

    gabby
    The question was boxers or briefs.

    *EllenKushner
    Ah, here it is:

    *Orlando_Jones
    Oy. Apologies. Angela. I will stay for another half hour or so

    Oriza
    gabby> Well, yeah, the fandom's definitely gonna focus on the good looking white men :P but yeah there are quite a few women. One less woman now unfortunately but they're tough and not dependent on men.

    *EllenKushner
    Orlando> You still there? I really am curious to know what the Industry thinks about actors discussing their characters outside the performance space. Is there any tradition of this pre-dating "fan work" talk? If not, how's the shift going?

    Michelle D.
    >Orlando, Ellen's question was: Orlando> You still there? I really am curious to know what the Industry thinks about actors discussing their characters outside the performance space. Is there any tradition of this pre-dating "fan work" talk? If not, how's the shift going?

    enchantedsleeper
    lmao!

    Michelle D.
    (oops, sorry Ellen!)

    Angela Nichols
    Awesome, thanks

    Chick C.
    enchantedsleeper> I have two up on tumblr (one of which was featured on SuperWiki, which I will forever find a way to insert into conversation because I'm very proud of that)

    *EllenKushner
    Michelle D> Don't be sorry! Come live with me and fix all my problems!!!

    Molly P.
    gabby > I was one of those people who started watching Teen Wolf (after seeing a gifset of Lydia watching Allison practice archery in the woods ;) ) and didn't even realise Scott McCall existed because everyone was all about Stiles.

    CollectivaDiva
    chick> thanks for the link.

    Chick C.
    CollectivaDiva> np!

    *Orlando_Jones
    Ellen> NO idea what the industry thinks about that to be honest. No one has said anything to me yet.

    gabby
    molly-> I am so baffled by the focus of TW fandom. entirely baffled.

    Renaissance
    I'm coming from an era where slash fanfic itself was originally considered a sign of moral depravity and corruption of the youth and whatnot, and all I can really say is that you have to be the change you want to see in the world. If you want stories about aromantic couples, write those. Find other people who are writing those kinds of stories and get together and change the narrative again. Because the narrative will always need changing because the narrative, as a rule, is bloody lazy and will lie in one spot and bloat until it rots if not occasionally kicked in the pants.

    gabby
    Which is almost a response in itself? That they're not like "omg Orlando STAHP."

    bookdal
    Orlando> Could you perhaps comment on how your peers respond to fans/fandom? Have you seen any response/

    enchantedsleeper
    Chick C.> I like your distinction between asexuality and aromanticism. A lot of people conflate the two and also assume asexual people can't be romantic, as well as assuming that aromantic people can't be sexual

    *EllenKushner
    Orlando> Seriously? No locker-room chat amongst other actors?

    Renaissance
    Also, mainstream media is always at least five years behind fandom and cannot be trusted to keep up.

    Quietborderline
    Renaissance > Very well said. =)

    Eli M.
    I wonder if the other actors and showrunners have even noticed what Orlando's been doing.

    enchantedsleeper
    Renaissance> Yes, very well said

    Oriza
    Renaissance> I think that's a good attitude to have. The more that this stuff gets attention in the media, the less likely that people will see through the stereotypes of fanfiction writers/fan creations.

    Eli M.
    But if they have and are silent or don't care, that is a response in and of itself.

    roane
    The SPN folks seem to have noticed Orlando. :)

    Chick C.
    Renaissance> In a fandom like SPN where shipping is king, it's been hard to press this idea into anything mainstream, but I've got a few friends who have told me my writings have opened their eyes a bit and they've even helped me with my aromantic characters blog, so it certainly gives me hope

    enchantedsleeper
    Renaissance> Fandom: kicking the lazy narrative in the pants since (insert year here)!

    EllenKushner
    Orlando> I've never done TV/Film, just theater, where Rehearsal is Sacred Space and you'd never share your prep thoughts with audience members or whatever. Is the difference that TV is so much more public, or …..?

    Chick C.
    enchantedsleeper> Oh man, as an pansexual aromantic, I always feel the need to stress that distinction!

    *Orlando_Jones
    gabby> Ellen> LOL. Truth be told most people in my industry have no idea what I am doing. A few folks have commented that I seem to be deeply immersed in it but so long as I am not conducting myself in a way that draws undue criticism to the show or the network they pretty much leave me alone. (rubs hands) which is probably a BIG mistake ;-)

    jenna
    renaissance> a thousand times yes

    Oriza
    Okay, I'm going to go have a cup of tea now, I've been staring at a screen for too long. This was a wonderful chat, thanks for your thoughts, everyone!

    *Diane D.
    Orlando> (chuckle)

    Angela Nichols
    Molly > gabby > I don't watch TW but I'm on tumblr a lot and I have no idea what that show is about or who the main character is. If I didn't know better I would think it was 3 shows

    bookdal
    You rebel, you, Orlando ;)

    *EllenKushner
    Orlando> But you're not the only one, right?

    Eli M.
    Renaissance> I was typing a thing kind of like that. Perhaps "fandom as corrective mechanism" plus the idea that creators and fans are in communication much more these days will help speed up remedying the issues we see in our media.

    enchantedsleeper
    Awwww bye Oriza! Enjoy the tea ;)

    *EllenKushner
    Oriza> I am having a cup of tea WHILE staying in the chatroom. Wimp.

    Alena
    Orlando> Do you share any of the fanworks/etc with your fellow actors? If so, what do they think of them?

    Angela Nichols
    Orlando > lol

    *Orlando_Jones
    Ellen> To be clear, I don't know that I've specifically shared prep with any audience per se. A lot of what we do is not for public consumption (and frankly boring) but the idea that I can't join our fans to experience the final produced product is not a position that interests me. As I've said before I'd be a fan of Sleepy Hollow whether I was on it or not.

    Angela Nichols
    Alena's question is actually a perfect lead in to question four

    Kamela
    Ellen> I wonder about that as well because I haven't really seen a lot of actors really talk about fandoms or acknowledge them (well besides Misha Collins) But I could be wrong here since I never have looked into it deeply.

    Molly P.
    Oh, a cup of tea sounds like a great idea. Might be just enough to help keep me awake for the next hour (it's just past 3am Down Under). *goes to put the kettle on and hopes it doesn't wake up the house*

    Renaissance
    Eli M> I'm looking at the recent Veronica Mars movie and how solidly it was critically panned, especially that godawful review in Variety, and I'm seeing nothing but the backlash of people in fear of their jobs.

    Eli M.
    Alena> Oh, that's a whole other can of worms. I know a lot of authors don't want to see fanworks for various reasons (legal and personal) - we even have a #notyouDD tag specifically for that - but I know a lot of artists who routinely hang up fanart in their studios.

    enchantedsleeper
    Molly P.> Wow, what stamina! All this talk of tea is making me want some too xD

    Renaissance
    They do not want to accept that now the fans have the resources to create the media they want to view.

    Angela Nichols
    Given the increasing visibility of fanworks to both content/source creators and the public, what do you think are some important points to emphasize — or sources to use — when explaining fanworks to people who are unfamiliar with them?

    Chick C.
    I don't think I'll ever get over the slight embarrassment at hearing actors talk about fandom. The first time I heard that Jensen Ackles bought Jared Padalecki a Wincest phone case as a gag gif, I was mortified before I could be amused

    *Orlando_Jones
    Alena> Yes and no. A lot of them are already aware of the content. I've seen a few great pieces of fanart that I've shared but that's about it. The fic is an acquired taste and I'm not comfortable sharing something without the permission of the fan creator.

    gabby
    Orlando - If you weren't on it I would have nobody to ship Jenny with except her sister, and I'm not sure I'm ready for that, so I'm glad you're on it.

    *EllenKushner
    Orlando> Ignore stupid mis-spoken question above; what I meant was the TV is a CONTINUING public saga - it's not like CHERRY ORCHARD ("So Madame Ranevskaya secretly longs to wear pink and has a weird childhood memory of Firs in the buttery….") -

    Eli M.
    Renaissance> Something something democratization of content creation?

    Renaissance
    Eli M> Mumble mumble Hollywood machine.

    *Diane D.
    Angela> Fortunately I'm not called to do this much. I tend to point and say, "Look, there's my fandom over there, have fun..." and get on with work.

    *EllenKushner
    Orlando> Sorry, I didn't mean prep per se. But never mind; we've moved on.

    *Orlando_Jones
    Angela> It's all about frame of reference but I believe everyone is familiar with fanworks on some level. Of late, I've heard constant reminders that 50 Shade of Grey is essentially a Twilight fanwork gone mainstream. The main tent-poles to reference are fan art, fan fiction, and other creative works inspired by an appreciation to and devotion for the work of a particular creator of film or television IP.

    Eli M.
    Renaissance> Cough cough executive meddling. :)

    Alena
    Orlando> As much as I'd love to know what Beharie and Mison 'ship, wanting to have permission of the creator sounds like a good rule of thumb. (:

    gabby
    Angela-> I just always want to point out that it's a medium like any other, with a ton of great writing and art and a ton of not great writing and art.

    CollectivaDiva
    chick c>but isn't it again, so revealing of it's power that the fandom has leaked into the lives of the actors/writers/creators?

    jenna
    i think that getting actors and creators involved with fandom in someways can be a really bad idea - in that for many people, their fanworks are intended for a fandom audience only. so definitely getting permission of the author/artist is key!!

    Eli M.
    Angela> Especially with anime fandom, the biggest hurdle I have is explaining that it's not all porn. Which is kind of a shame, because as a fan I recognize that section of a fandom, even if I don't participate in it.

    *Orlando_Jones
    Alena> The other thing is that Tom and Nicole literally work on the show 16 hours a day and have a very specific process. I think a little Trollando IRL goes a LONG way.

    gabby
    There's this thing when people use "sounds like fanfic" as a perjorative, and it's just...it just makes me sad that they never put the effort into reading good fanfic.

    Eli-> Yeah! That too.

    Chick C.
    CollectivaDiva> It is kind of exciting, but I know fandom is a very delicate, easily judged thing, and being put in the unenviable position of having an actor you admire look at what you do in disgust is always a looming feeling

    enchantedsleeper
    Angela> I have some great resources which emphasis just how *long* fanfic has been around and how many famous and revered works it encompasses. I think those are a must-show to anyone who wants to know more about fanworks

    bookdal
    jenna> I also think getting creators involved presents the danger of authorization and sanctification.

    CollectivaDiva
    jenna> but there is no real way to keep the execs from not noticing the fandom. and then, when they do, they become part of it. all very meta LOL

    Eli M.
    enchantedsleeper> What are some of the responses you get to that? I'm curious.

    Alena
    Orlando> Ooof, I can't imagine.

    Chick C.
    CollectivaDiva> And then there's cases like SPN where the fandom is so divided that an actor taking one "side" of things sends the whole fandom into a tizzy.

    enchantedsleeper
    Angela> Because really, people who think they're unfamiliar with fanworks aren't; they just don't realise that what they're reading/viewing count as fanworks

    Renaissance
    gabby> Um, I would slightly argue that fanfiction does have a distinctive character-driven style to it that may actually be detrimental to its overall quality? But then again, depending on what you wanna do with it, that's not necessarily a minus.

    enchantedsleeper
    Eli M.> So far, I haven't had the chance to share them with anyone who is truly uninitiated

    Kamela
    Gabby> I agree so much with that! I can't even tell my friends that I WRITE it because of the negative light some people have pasted on it, when it all honesty, there's nothing wrong with it!

    gabby
    Renaissance-> But with such a huge medium, can we really say that about it all?

    CollectivaDiva
    chick c>that fandom is all tizzy. but seriously, there are factions in every fandom, that i've noticed, and crazies on all sides.

    Eli M.
    enchantedsleeper> Also, fanart and fanfic seem to be in completely different camps. I've found many people who consider fanart to be "awesome!" and fanfic to be "weird..."

    enchantedsleeper
    Eli M.> But the Livejournal post I'm thinking of in particular has lots of discussion on it. Let me just try and dig it up

    Angela Nichols
    Enchanted > that sounds like a great resource !

    Eli M.
    enchantedsleeper> I think I've probably read it, but you should link it in the chat for others. :)

    enchantedsleeper
    Angela> Yeah it is! One minute and I'll have the link :3

    jenna
    orlando> have you recieve any negative backlash for your involvement in fandom? if so, how do you respond to that?

    Renaissance
    gabby> I would say it about a mainstream published novel. I'm not going to hold any writer to a higher standard just because one got an advance and one didn't.

    bookdal
    Eli M.> I ranted about the art v. fic divide a few weeks ago w/someone. It makes my blood boil.

    Eli M.
    (If it's the one I'm thinking of it's been around for a while.)

    Chick C.
    CollectivaDiva> True, true

    enchantedsleeper
    *runs back in brandishing link* Here!

    Angela Nichols
    Enchanted > Good point "Because really, people who think they're unfamiliar with fanworks aren't; they just don't realise that what they're reading/viewing count as fan works"

    gabby
    Renaissance-> Nor would I, and I've read plenty of published work that was crap, and fanfiction that was of publishable quality. *shrug*

    jenna
    enchanted> aah thank you!

    Eli M.
    bookdal> It's crazy! Both take incredible amounts of forethought and talent, not to mention bravery to post online. I wonder if it's a question of people's inherent perception of value of art and literature...?

    Renaissance
    gabby> I'd say the signal-to-noise ratio in both is pretty comparable!

    gabby
    Renaissance-> my point exactly

    Eli M.
    Like, a lot of people don't "go on a journey" with a piece of visual art. But literature exists along a timeline - you can't read even flash fiction in an instant.

    *Orlando_Jones
    jenna> Lots of negative backlash and questioning my motives especially as it relates to my love of SPN fandom since "I don't even go there". I take none of it personally and since I have no agenda other than to have fun I try not to react. Some people get it (and me) and some don't. Tuh-MAY-to/Tuh-MAH-to

    *EllenKushner
    Angela et al> No, trust me, there are plenty of people who are pretty unaware of fan works, still! And it is always a challenge to introduce them to it - assuming there's a reason to - in conversation or what have you…...

    Eli M.
    Also related: we have literature appreciation taught in schools but not art appreciation. The two are classified totally differently. (USian here.)

    CollectivaDiva
    orland.the spn fandom LOVES you!!!

    Molly P.
    I shared a silly bit of christmas fluff for James Bond I wrote with my mother once, since she wanted to know what I was writing all the time. I thought it would be safe. She read it out loud to my Grandmother. I still cringe thinking about it. It really was just fluffy nonsense but hearing it read out loud by someone who wasn't involved in fandom made me so uncomfortable because of how I know it is still perceived by so many people.

    Angela Nichols
    So what defense do you say to someone who had a negative view of fanwork?

    bookdal
    Eli M.> I think it also has to do with the idea that the "story" has an authorized voice where as the image is subject to mashup/remix/remake. It's fascinating but very disturbing.

    Eli M.
    enchantedsleeper++ #that's the one

    enchantedsleeper
    Also in a similar vein, I really like this blog post response to Robin Hobb's (since removed) rant about fanfiction

    *Orlando_Jones
    CollectivaDiva> Much appreciated but a vocal minority definitely do not.

    Eli M.
    Angela> You just smile at them and tease them about what they're missing out on. :)

    *Diane D.
    Renaissance> God, too true. I sometimes wish (however dreadful the wish) that AO3 had "reverse bookmarking" so that I could mark certain writers as someone whose output I could actively in future be *prevented* from reading. The phrase "there's twenty minutes / an hour / a day I'll never get back" does come up. :/

    jenna
    orlando > glad to see you staying positive regardless!

    CollectivaDiva
    orlando> the spn fandom is insane as a whole. you have to find your niche and ignore the wank.

    Chick C.
    Orlando_Jones> I wouldn't necessarily say it's "tomato/tomato". Remember when you tried to public humiliate me for critiquing how what you do looks dangerously close to queerbaiting? You were pretty harsh before you were nice, you know

    enchantedsleeper
    Diane D.> That would be a useful feature!!

    *Diane D.
    Renaissance> Saying nothing here of the spare of profoundly gifted writers whose work I'll drop ANYTHING to read when it updates.

    bookdal
    orlando> Supernatural presents an extraordinary case in fandom, imo. It grew up w/social media explosion and has definite quirks.

    gabby
    I remember when 50 Shades of Gray was huge, I worked at a bookstore and was SO SAD that people were reading SUCH BAD EROTICA when fandom has SO MUCH and SUCH BETTER stuff if they could only learn to use AO3.

    jenna
    diane d> seconded!!

    Molly P.
    Speaking of fandoms where you need to find your niche, entering the Doctor Who fandom is like stepping into Jupiter's Giant Red Spot.

    enchantedsleeper
    gabby> Yes, FSOG gives fanworks a bad name, but of course THAT's the one everyone's heard of... :/

    Eli M.
    Angela> But also it's interesting that my participation in the YW fandom and reading/seeing the fanworks there have done nothing but broaden my appreciation for the original works themselves.

    Molly P.
    You find a bunker with the people who like your doctor(s)/companion(s)/ship(s)/writer(s) and you huddle in there, bar the windows and lock the door.

    enchantedsleeper
    gabby> But I know this point came up in a previous OTW chat - if you want the door open, you have to be prepared for what comes through it

    (Or something to that effect!)

    Chick C.
    I've never watched an ep of Doctor Who, but due to exposure I could probably seamlessly recount at least three episodes

    *EllenKushner
    Renaissance> "I would slightly argue that fanfiction does have a distinctive character-driven style to it that may actually be detrimental to its overall quality?" Ha! interesting. It is true that Character-Driven fiction is out of fashion these days - which I object to mightily! For awhile, we even founded a group called the Young Trollopes (in honor of Guardian Spirit Anthony Trollope) to promote Character-Driven fiction. People love characters. They are loyal to all sorts of fiction (including TV) for them. This attempt to drive character-driven work underground -or to the outer reaches of the dread GENRE FICTION - is er well out of words, so : Very Bad.

    Eli M.
    It means that every time I go back to reread the books, there's a new question I wouldn't have asked because I never would have thought to ask it before, because I only am me - but someone else has brought it up and now I can think about it as I read.

    gabby
    enchanted sleeper - Kaiju, I assume.

    enchantedsleeper
    gabby> Kaiju?

    *Diane D.
    Ellen> Wait, character-driven fiction is out again? I'm screwed. :)

    Laura J.
    Eli--YES!

    gabby
    ah, giant monsters. Pacific Rim, Godzilla.

    *Orlando_Jones
    Chick C> I apologize in advance as I don't remember the specific exchange. If it appeared as though I was publicly shaming you I apologize. I would respectfully submit that if we're engaging in a public forum and I disagree with you I'm not sure it's fair to say that you were being publicly shamed and I don't personally believe that I was queerbaiting but I imagine we have a difference of opinion there. Again, no offense was intended.

    *EllenKushner
    Molly P > Aw, baby - it's always embarrassing hearing your stuff read aloud by someone else! Doesn't even have to be fanfic ;)

    Kamela
    Gabby & Enchantedsleeper> I almost cried when my best friend told me she loved FSOG, but refused to read fan fiction.

    enchantedsleeper
    gabby> Actually, Frenchy L. said it:

    "Frenchy L. Fans have to realize that if you want the door open for your area of desire, you have to accept that a lot of stuff coming in that door might be something you disagree with -- its the price for "freedom...""

    Eli M.
    It's like accelerating the growth process. If you come back to a book after 10 years, it'll be a totally different book. But fandom and fannish works help that process happen after just a few months, if you're willing.

    Valerie
    Ellen > Fans tend to fall in love with characters and the possibilities they present to a greater degree than worlds. IMO.

    jenna
    valerie > there's definitely some exception to that though! esp with things like harry potter

    Renaissance
    Ellen> In the sense that fanfiction can get away with focusing strictly on character since world-building/premise have already been established within the original work? Yep. Which may be why it's so appealing to fan-authors: you can get to the good stuff, the character-focused stuff, right away.

    Eli M.
    Valerie> Maybe... but maybe not. The best worldbuilding in my opinion is the kind that leaves room for more than just the story that's already in it.

    Chick C.
    Orlando_Jones> Well, the (.) in front of my username brought it from a semi-one-on-one discussion into your 111k followers, and then you made another tweet about me after we were finished, so I would consider it that. I was being harsh tho, as queerbaiting is a topic pretty dear to me, but I don't think I myself apologized: I'm sorry.

    armeleia
    Regarding characters, I think fans also tend to strive for a certain equity that's not normally available in the source material.

    *EllenKushner
    Valerie> Jenna > Worlds give us places for our characters to play in. Who in my generation didn't figure out a Self they could be in the rich soil of Middle Earth?

    Chick C.
    Orlando_Jones> Can't believe you don't remember me, though. You follow me on twitter. I'm #hot wing princess, I gave you a Sam/Dean fic to read?

    *EllenKushner
    Ren> Good point

    Renaissance
    Ellen> Also if character-driven fic goes out I am totally screwed since at the moment you can read a newspaper through my plot....

    Eli M.
    Ellen> Exactly! Directly relates to the idea of fans creating OCs.

    *EllenKushner
    Ren/DD> Character-driven fic is still alive & well in SF/F! More so than in mainstre-- er, what I call "Domestic Realism" genre.

    Molly P.
    I've always found it fascinating how some concepts permeate rapidly through fandoms, becoming standard discussion topics and AU launching points (such as House Sorting, Jaeger co-pilot, Inception skill sets, what Daemon a character would have, etc).

    Eli M.
    (And wow, talk about a fannish can of worms... fanworks with OCs in them! A lot of times they are the most derided, but they can be the most creative too.)

    gabby
    Speaking of which! The spectre of Mary Sue still seems to loom so large, but I've always had a soft spot for the idea of her. So many male-written and starred-in narratives star a Gary Stu, but aren't generally derided for it.

    Fuurou
    Molly > Yes, yes, yes, all of this.

    bookdal
    Eli M.> Perhaps creating the OC is a step too far? I say that as a fanfic author who has created OCs, btw.

    Renaissance
    Ellen> I'm adopting the term "domestic realism." <3

    Eli M.
    bookdal> How do you mean, "a step too far"?

    Chick C.
    gabby> Charlie Bradbury is considered a Mary Sue in the SPN fandom, and I say—so what! Batman is a Gary Stu, isn't he? Everyone loves him!

    Angela Nichols
    Renaissance > Ellen > That's also why I think Fanfiction is excellent as a writing exercise, especially for new writers. Need to work on plot, characters are established. want to work on character, deconstruct one, etc.

    *EllenKushner
    Ren> Oh, please do! I hate the way "literary" fiction valorizes itself when it's merely another genre.

    Eli M.
    Molly > Yeah, those are fundamental tentstakes of those worlds! They are immovable points. You don't often see a Pacific Rim AU without the idea of "drift compatible", etc...

    CollectivaDiva
    chick c> how do you figure re: charlie?

    armeleia
    Chick> Charlie is really considered a Mary Sue?

    *EllenKushner
    Angela> Yes yes yes!!!!!! Fanfic is the greatest writing exercise on earth! It's just hell when you take off the training wheels….

    jenna
    the derision of self-insert OCs makes me really sad sometimes, because part of the beauty of fandom is putting yourself into the fiction and discovering new aspects of yourself through that. obviously those sorts of fics aren't really interesting to other people, and aren't always suited for public consumption, but as a private/individual practice, OCs are WONDERFUL.

    Eli M.
    Ellen> Ooh, "domestic realism". Such a better word than... whatever that's called now.

    *Diane D.
    Angela> Gerrold's Law applies: "The first million words are for practice." I did most of my first 1000K as fanfic.

    bookdal
    Eli M. > It's inserting too much "creativity" into the source material, and is an active (material) step that co-opts the established text. Like okay you can use these characters, etc. but once you create your own, you are on verge of something more. Just a random thought. Not fully fleshed out, of course.

    *Orlando_Jones
    Chick C> Ah yes. Thanks for jogging my memory. As you pointed out (which I appreciate) I did feel that you were being harsh. I admit to some confusion about the whole Destiel thing in terms of why it upsets some people. As an occasional fan of the show the potential that Dean and Cas share a deep bound (romantic or otherwise) seems cool to me. I am mindful of my own biases but it never occurred to me that this is even a problem and it confuses me when people take offense. It's a conversation for a different time perhaps and I appreciate the proactive way you've engaged since by introducing me to J2 fic, etc. Glad to meet you in this context as well :-)

    *Orlando_Jones
    bound=bond

    roane
    I always wondered where the first million words thing came from. :) I think my first million were in terrible urban fantasy.

    gabby
    bookdal-> what of AUs? or fic that centers on bit-part characters?

    Valerie
    Ellen> Certainly, in those worlds, but there's also an element of identification as a child with the journey-takers in Middle Earth. "Who am I like? Where would I fit?"

    Angela Nichols
    Ellen > I'm personally working on taking off my training wheels right now, eek!

    *EllenKushner
    Orlando> I just want to say I love what you're doing here and everywhere. Thanks for your generosity. It must be hard as hell to be that famous - i.e. that open to public scrutiny, and still try to be real. In public.

    Chick C.
    CollectivaDiva> armeleia> She is, and there's been a lot written about the subject. She has a tragic backstory, a "male-sounding" name, she hunts alone more efficiently than Sam and Dean hunt together, she works as a fan stand-in, is full of Pop Culture references, has red hair (I've actually seen that as an example, tho I supposed "red hair" is the most attractive of fictional lady hair colors), and is likable in that, for a fandom that is notorious for internalized misogyny, she's a lesbian and not a "threat" to the boys, as Misha would say

    *EllenKushner
    roane> from Malcolm Gladwell

    armeleia
    Jenna> I love OCs and write them myself, but not of the self-insert variety. I find self-insert OCs are often uncomfortable because they feel like reading someone's diary rather than a piece of fiction.

    *Diane D.
    Roane> It was almost all burnt. Just as well, much of it was godawful. The rest became "The Door Into Fire." :)

    Chick C.
    CollectivaDiva> armeleia> And she has no notable flaws, but that could just be me talking because I'm deeply in love with her

    CollectivaDiva
    chick c> aren't we all?

    enchantedsleeper
    I'm not far enough into SPN to have met Charlie yet, but I've read her in fanworks and I can't wait, she sounds so awesome

    bookdal
    Gabby> still tied to the established characters, perhaps? Again, it was more about spitballing an idea, but it would be an interesting study to track the history of OCs and their receptions to see what is acceptable and what was considered not.

    Eli M.
    bookdal> I would have to do some real analysis before suggesting this as something solid, but maybe that is the case in a universe where the characters are central to the world. Like HP definitely centers around the trio for its world - the "What the other Hogwarts students thought about those 7 years" thing is some evidence for that - and so to create an OC is to push the bounds of the world farther than they were meant to go?

    TerryK
    It does seem kind of ironic that introducing OC is kind of disruptive, while taking existing characters and having them in new situations is not so much (at least to me)

    Molly P.
    My mother constantly asks me when I'm going to stop writing fanfic and start writing things I can make money off. I've tried several times to write original works but they're all sitting in various skeletal stages on my computer. The drive isn't there to write the same. In part I think it's because I have to create everything and can't rely on the reader having background knowledge, but I think it's mainly that fandom allows for almost instantaneous feedback. You can watch view count go up, you can get kudos and comments within a matter of hours to days. It's almost addicting, that kind of gratification, even if it comes with that fear of criticism.

    Eli M.
    Because sometimes introducing new characters in a character-centered work's world requires you to ask questions that the original work never had to answer - a lot of "what's the world like for someone who isn't the chosen one?"

    jenna
    armeleia> oh i definitely agree with that! i feel pretty uncomfortable with some self-inserts too. but i think they're still really valuable as a private practice and as a way to explore identity.

    armeleia
    Chick> That's interesting, though I suppose that in some ways it differs from what I have always perceived as the typical Mary Sue, as she is not a love interest and has only been a minor-to-supporting character in the main story arcs rather than really having her own. She's had two episodes where her backstory featured prominently, but they were obvious "filler" episodes rather than the plot-critical ones.

    *Orlando_Jones
    Ellen> Thanks for the kind words. I don't know that it's hard per se but it is interesting and I imagine I have an experience that's somewhat different from many on our chat today. I appreciate the opportunity to participate, make mistakes, learn from them and continue to engage. I realize that for some people it makes them uncomfortable. I mean them no disrespect but I sometimes find their responses to be a bit "over the top".

    justmeandmymuse
    molly > I so hear you on that one.

    roane
    Oh god, the notion that writing isn't valid as a hobby and it only counts if you're doing it for pay... that's one of my HUGE bugaboos.

    Renaissance
    Molly> I know a lot of people who feel the same.

    Eli M.
    roane> It's interesting, because "hobbies" are something you specifically don't do for pay.

    *EllenKushner
    Angela> Good luck to you (and everyone else who's trying)! Yeah, you'll quickly discover your strengths & weaknesses - but just remember that EVERY author's got 'em! I know people who are immensely gifted at Plot, but their Dialogue can be, er, painful. Gifted at Characterization, but need a weed-whacker for Plot, etc etc. It all comes together in the Final Draft - don't kid yourself into thinking that it's naturally easy for us. The diff between Published and Not is often how hard you're willing to work to make it Good.

    Renaissance
    roane> I'm like Sylvia Plath: I'll write all day if you let me, but I still want to see it formalized in print.

    bookdal
    Eli M.> I think it would be a fascinating study. Choose a few fandoms and track fanfics that created OCs to see what worked and what didn't. Are there patterns and if so what are they and what might we learn from them?

    Valerie
    Molly P.> I reject the theory that hobbies have to be profitable. Most of the musicians and athletes I know spend time doing things because they're FUN. They're not expected to go pro or play concerts. Fanworks are no different.

    justmeandmymuse
    Why lock yourself in a room with a book and then send it out to be rejected when you can have so much fun posting chapter-by-chapter on AO3?

    TerryK
    roane> taht's unfortunate, because what could be a better hobby than something you enjoy, and also gives other people injoyment?

    roane
    Renaissance > Oh trust me, I'm not knocking going pro! I have an agent and a manuscript in front of some editors right now. :)

    *Orlando_Jones
    Forgive me for asking but what does OC stand for?

    Chick C.
    Orlando_Jones> No problem! Though I myself am passionate about Sam and Dean's relationship, and if you're comfortable with it we can have that conversation for another time. Our fandom is pretty cleanly broken down the middle (Destiel vs Wincest, Sam stans vs Dean stans vs Cas stans, etc.) so when anyone of note takes a side it throws us all into a war. We've got a pretty hair trigger temper as a collective fandom, and as a person who loves Dean and Sam/Dean with a close knit of friends who love Cas and Dean/Cas, I (futilely, probably) try to keep the peace. It's not really my place, tho. I mean, who died and made me Fandom Officer in Chief?

    armeleia
    Chick> But with that said, I can see where she could be seen as a Mary Sue. However, I also see the Mary Sue label can be a dangerous form of internalized misogyny, where people can dismiss any competent female character.

    roane
    But the notion that that's the ONLY valid way to write is... grr.

    bookdal
    Original Character

    jenna
    orlando> Original Character

    *EllenKushner
    Molly> Oh dear, they all think that, don't they? Go find one of those SFWA articles that breaks down how many dollars/year most fiction writers actually make. There's more reliable dough in dog-walking (at least, in NYC!).

    gabby
    Woo! Knocking on wood for you, Roane :)

    Eli M.
    justmeandmymuse > Because if you have to do the whole book upfront, there is no chance that the fic will be awesome and get abandoned halfway through... :(

    *Diane D.
    roane> And what an agent. :) (I keep forgetting to tell you that.)

    enchantedsleeper
    justmeandmymuse> The serialised nature of fanworks combined with their feedback-driven nature also makes for some interesting results such as taking reader suggestions on board, etc.

    Eli M.
    Orlando> An original character, or someone's made-up character in a specific universe. For example: making up a student who goes to Hogwarts who isn't ever mentioned in the books.

    roane
    Diane > Seriously, my dream agent and agency. how is this my life.

    Kamela
    Valerie> Agreed :)

    CollectivaDiva
    orland>i think because you're constantly making an effort to connect, not only with your own fans, but with fans of stuff you love, makes you unique among actors. so many people want to stay in the bubble, and it's nice to see intelligent, thoughtful people connecting with other intelligent, thoughtful people, regardless of fame.

    enchantedsleeper
    (I'm thinking mostly of fanfic here, but I imagine it applies to fancomics too)

    *EllenKushner
    Orlando> Yep. Years in Public Radio where I could be personally attacked for a statement made at 2:00 a.m. about JS Bach have hardened me ;)

    *Orlando_Jones
    Chick C> LOL. I'm enjoying the process and appreciate your feedback. That is why we follow each other on twitter after all ;-)

    CollectivaDiva
    orlando! dang, i keep with the typos.

    justmeandmymuse
    Eli > Funny enough when I sit locked in my room for a year with just my words I lose my drive and never finish.

    Chick C.
    armeleia> The criteria for what makes a "Mary Sue" get broader and broader as fandom's internalized misogyny grows, I believe. I think, in Robbie Thompson's case giving our fandom, he pretty much had to make a female character above and beyond what we're used to, just to get her foot in the door

    Molly P.
    armeleia > agreed. 'Mary Sue' has become a go to insult thrown at competent female characters. Sometimes it fits, but often it's just mud flinging.

    justmeandmymuse
    Eli> Whereas when I know I have readers waiting with baited breaths for the next installment you better believe I'll deliver.

    Angela Nichols
    We are now going into our last half hour in the chat! Welcome if are just joining us! If you want to send out a message on your social media accounts about the chat, that would be great! We’d just like to ask that if you are using twitter or tumblr to please use the #ao3million hashtag so that we can track and retweet/reblog comments on OTW accounts

    *Orlando_Jones
    Ellen> The Bach fandom is cray-cray. They take their 1812 Overture fic VERY seriously.

    Eli M.
    justmeandmymuse> Maybe we are due for the return of serial publishing to the fore?

    TerryK
    it is a little rush to get those positive comments.

    Chick C.
    Orlando_Jones> True! lol

    Eli M.
    Ellen> Whoa! Now I'm curious what you said...

    CollectivaDiva
    chick c> did you get my application for Secretary of Smut?

    Alena
    Eli> I definitely think serial publishing is coming back.

    gabby
    Eli-> as a comics industry wannabe, serialized is tough as hell to profit from

    justmeandmymuse
    I'd have made it big in Dickens' time. ;)

    bookdal
    Now I want to write a time travel AU that slashes Bach and Mozart...It's title will be "Rock Me, Amadeus"

    *EllenKushner
    Orlando> LOL! No lie

    gabby
    under the current comics model anyway

    enchantedsleeper
    Chick C.> CollectivaDiva> Whatever this committee is you're foruming, I want in ;)

    *forming damn it

    roane
    bookdal > I would read that.

    Chick C.
    CollectivaDiva> I'm afraid it's gone back to the Pornish Pixies Committee. We're going to need additional information on your smut certifications

    Fuurou
    I've gotta head to work. Keep it up! You all rock!

    Valerie
    Chick >Orlando is another fangirl (no "honorary" about it); shippers gonna ship. ;)

    Eli M.
    bookdal> Only if the sequel is called "Roll over, Beethoven"!

    justmeandmymuse
    Terry K> Definitely.

    armeleia
    Chick and Molly> Yeah, the "Strong female character" as a means of battling the Mary Sue moniker is getting a little bit tedious in itself. Re: intrnalized misogyny, I find that female characters often get stripped from fc entirely to make room for the boys.

    *Orlando_Jones
    CollectivaDiva> I realize I am approaching it in a different way than some are accustomed to and I always enjoy making new friends. I even made a lot of new friends from the Norman Reedus/TWD fandom this week.

    enchantedsleeper
    Eli M.> Oh god, SO MANY WAYS to take that

    armeleia
    Orlando> I was bummed you didn't make it to the last round, but your attitude is awesome.

    *Orlando_Jones
    "Roll over Beethoven and tell Tchaikovsky the news." I ship it

    Angela Nichols
    Do you think the scrutiny from academics, legal practitioners, entertainment industries and the media, have affected the creative freedom of source creators or fan creators? Are there ways in which different online spaces can have have rules of engagement that vary based on a person’s particular connection to the community?

    To elaborate, there have been cases where creators have engaged with fans in their own spaces regarding criticism of work they were connected to. There have also been cases of the media forcing those in the entertainment industry to engage with particular fanworks in an interview setting. Many fans have been upset by the imbalance of power exhibited by these sorts of intrusions in what were once semi-private activities. Do you have concerns about these sorts of encounters between community in-groups and out-groups?

    gabby
    oh god you guys i can't stop picturing the dog.

    CollectivaDiva
    orlando>i think just being open and honest with the fandom and, instead of criticizing, trying to understand--that goes a long way with a population who have always been present, but rarely acknowledged by the people who make loads of cash off us.

    Laura J.
    Am I alone in (liking Orlando very much but) not liking his appropriation of 'fangirl'?

    *Orlando_Jones
    armeleia> Thanks. I had a lot of fun and that was ultimately my sole objective.

    Eli M.
    Well, my next orchestra concert's gonna be much more exciting...

    *EllenKushner
    'The criteria for what makes a "Mary Sue" get broader and broader as fandom's internalized misogyny grows' - well said! I'm still reeling from the temperate, pleasant online review of THE PRIVILEGE OF THE SWORD calling it "ChickLit" - because IT HAD THINGS THAT GIRLS CARE ABOUT IN IT!!!! ogoddon'tgetmestarted

    Angela Nichols
    There is one of our last questions, I know Orlando talked about it some, but Diane or Ellen anything to add from the publishing side of things

    *Orlando_Jones
    I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer this question. I will say this ultimately.. the entertainment industry at large has had to evolve its thinking on the acquisition, sharing and modification of original IP since the advent of P2P networks, fanzines, blogs, etc. The reactionary thinking that led to suing tweens and grandmothers for downloading albums was not only a PR nightmare but also did nothing to slow the pace of technology and the distruptive factors that it brings. Rules for online spaces may or may not work but it won't affect the creative freedom of either source or fan creators on a grand scale. In the same way Itunes created a scalable and intuitive marketplace for music downloads but did not compeltely eliminate piracy so too will there continue to be online spaces that engage in official and approved fan creation at the same time that there will be a dark net that pushes boundaries.

    The answer to this question is entirely subjective and since it specifically addresses behaviors I engage in I would ultimately say that the outcomes depend on the intention behind these encounters and the respect that all parties show one another. Being a dick is never a good strategy but sometimes the best intentions can go awry.

    Molly P.
    armeleia > It's so much harder to find fic with well written female characters in it. Sometimes I'm shocked at the lack of female driven or femslash works out there, especially when a ship seems really obvious. There will be a ton of fic for a crack m/m pairing but next to nothing for the ladies who are best friends and do everything together.

    bookdal
    The trilogy will end with "Vivaldilicious"

    Chick C.
    armeleia> I randomly remembered Tracy, the one-time Black female character that showed up in an early ep of SPN season 9. I loved her when she came in, but almost instantly there were cries of "Mary Sue!" because she wore shorts and stabbed a monster. On a show about killing monsters and shirtless Sam Winchesters! It's baffling, really

    gabby
    Ellen-> God, that's ridiculous. Predictable, but ridiculous.

    Molly P.
    v i v a l d i l i c i o u s

    *EllenKushner
    So you all know Tchaikovsky was famously queer and Beethoven had a lot of unconsummated crushes on unattainable women, right? #dedicateittomewhenyouwriteit

    *Diane D.
    Angela> I'm still thinking with anguish of what mildredandbobbin was forced to go through at the hands of a certain unnamed UK newspaper columnist at that Sherlock screening post-interview.

    Valerie
    Having spent a lot of time in the X-Files and Buffy fandoms, I have to laugh at the idea that fans reject strong female characters or consider them to be Mary Sues. But...it depends on the fandom.

    TerryK
    Yes, Tchaikovsky was gay! One of my faves besides that!

    armeleia
    Molly> I think that the main problem with femslash and female characters in fic is that the source characters are weak and almost interchangeable. Therefore, there's not a whole lot to draw on in fic, and not a lot of chemistry to inspire pairings to begin with.

    Chick C.
    EllenKushner> Ugh, designating things as "ChickLit" because it doesn't completely ignore women in favor of men is such a pet peeve of mine

    *EllenKushner
    Actually, Tchaik had a Patroness who was nuts for him & supported his work….. Hmmm, maybe she & one of Beethoven's ladies could get it on…..

    justmeandmymuse
    Valerie > Or Xena and Voyager fandoms... hello.

    *Diane D.
    Angela> NO ONE should be pushed into such a situation without giving consent. And I get a sense from my sources that there will be ice skating in the Ninth Circle of Hell before that particular columnist is allowed to take part in such an event again.

    gabby
    Armeleia -> I balk hard at that, actually. What characters are you talking about in particular?

    Valerie
    Or Sleepy Hollow!

    armeleia
    Chick> I don't even remember her... :( S9 has been very week and very not-good for female character in egeneral.

    enchantedsleeper
    Diane D.> Are you referring to that fanfic that was read out?

    Kamela
    EllenKushner and Diane D.> Do you think that people are more careful with how they write female characters because they're wary about them being labeled "Mary Sues" ?

    roane
    Diane > I'm GLAD to hear that.

    *Diane D.
    enchanted> Yep.

    Molly P.
    armeleia > Very true. Unfortunately that just means there's an even greater need for some good fanfic to flesh them out :(

    *Orlando_Jones
    Laura J> Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. I never thought of it as appropriation but mindful that others do. There's a clear distinction in my mind between fanboys and fangirls. If we all possess masculine and feminine energy I personally think the terms are fair game for either gender. Fangirling has more than an emotional content IMHO. Either way I realize some may find that response to be disingenuous but I use the term with respect, not derision.

    Angela Nichols
    Diane > I'm sorry, but I'm not familiar with that case

    enchantedsleeper
    Diane D.> God, I heard about that, what a despicable thing to do

    Chick C.
    Kamela> The "Anti-Sue" rears its ugly head quite often

    armeleia
    gabby> Most of the big-name fandoms lack good, well-rounded female characters, and as a result a lot of the fic almost feels like OC-girls because there's little to draw on.

    *EllenKushner
    Chick C> I knowwwww!!!!! what's up with that????? George Eliot, what??? Charlotte Bronte Jane Austen OK cause they're, what, DEAD????

    enchantedsleeper
    Angela> I might be able to fish you up a Tumblr post on it, hang on

    armeleia
    gabby> I exempt Sleepy Hollow from the the "lack of good female characters" judgement, as well as Hannibal.

    bookdal
    *Bookdal taking notes for her Tchaik/Bach/Mozart OT3 fic*

    Molly P.
    Oh are we referring to that infamous Moran incident?

    Chick C.
    armeleia> It really has ): I hear the spin-off is supposed to be more female-friendly (and there's a main character POC!) so maybe they'll get it right that time

    auroramere
    I know I've had feelings of "is this fanfic?" when reading or watching fiction that gives me stuff I want - TPOTS, for example. Maybe women just don't expect to be catered to the way men are.

    *EllenKushner
    bookdal> you forgot to say DEDICATED TO ELLEN KUSHNER

    gabby
    Armelia- but again, what characters? I ask because I've been flabbergasted to hear people say that, say, Black Widow, or Ruby from SPN, don't have much going on character-wise. That just seems like fandom valuing male character development over female.

    TerryK
    Buffy had some awesome female characters

    hele
    Laura J., Orlando_Jones > it's only appropriations if you consider fandom to be a separate 'culture' of which he's not part of. Why would you? Though I was curious about the use, vs using 'fanboy' -- if there's any difference beyond the gender thing

    Eli M.
    Oh my gosh, did we just invent the genre of composer slashfic and then within a half-hour bring in female characters and create a femslash pairing because we felt the original work was lacking in its treatment of female characters?

    *Diane D.
    Kamela> I suspect some may be cautious / concerned about it, but I think the concern is misplaced, as ALL characters in a given author's fiction are self-insertions by definition. There is no way that any fully-fleshed character does NOT partake of at least some of the author's characteristics, even if the characteristic is simply self-awareness.

    bookdal
    Ellen> Dedicated to Ellen Kushner, who inspired the Tchaik inclusion

    enchantedsleeper
    Eli M.> xD This being the internet, I think the genre probably already existed

    *Orlando_Jones
    Let me just say that Season 2 of Sleepy Hollow is going to create some VERY interesting new character dynamics that will be fodder for MUCH conversation. Some new female characters coming in that are absolutely fascinating in my opinion.

    Molly P.
    gabby > I've lost track of how many times I've defended the Black Widow against the accusation that she did nothing in Iron Man 2/The Avengers but provide some boobage.

    *EllenKushner
    auroramere> Not sure I follow you. Is the book fanfic, do you mean?

    Angela Nichols
    Eli > magical things are happening

    gabby
    Molly-> SAME.

    bookdal
    Orlando> Yay! I really do adore your show.

    Laura J.
    I believe you, Orlando, but honestly It's just.. You are so not small and female, and it just doesn't go, for me. And I really like what you're doing (apart from proving there articulate American actors, which is sometimes hard to find evidence for).

    *EllenKushner
    bookdal> :)

    armeleia
    gabby> I like black widow a lot... and I would love to see her more. However, if we're talking femslash, there is absolutely no one to pair her with. And if you look at the principals in avengers, she is one of the only (i think) 3 named female characters.

    auroramere
    There's a chicken/egg thing going on with some source material. We didn't get Ruby's POV until 2 minutes before she died!

    jenna
    orlando> yes good! i'm excited

    roane
    Eli M > composer TIMETRAVEL slash fic.;)

    Kamela
    Chick C.> Indeed it does

    *EllenKushner
    Eli M> Oh, probably. Time will tel.

    Molly P.
    Orlando > Brilliant news!

    Laura J.
    I do feel he is never going to be shamed for only be a girl.

    *EllenKushner
    tell

    Eli M.
    roane> Duly noted.

    Angela Nichols
    Orlando > *mumbles angry things about Katrina*

    armeleia
    armeleia> Black widow is a great character, but you have to admit that in the universe of marvel movies, she's unusual.

    *EllenKushner
    roane> True. For even a cursory look at Wiki will reveal that…..

    *Orlando_Jones
    Angela> Don't shoot the messenger but please be patient.

    armeleia
    gabby> Uh, I mean that to you. ;)

    gabby
    armeleia-> which doesn't mean she isn't a fleshed-out character, though? i just am so confused by fandom making hawkeye, who was honestly a cardboard man, its darling, and leaving her in the dust.

    Laura J.
    I do think that people look differently on fangirls from fanboys.

    Bertha C.
    Orlando > can't wait for Sleepy Hollow to be back! Also, Free Frank Irving!

    Molly P.
    It's telling that I already feel spoiled by Sleepy Hollow having multiple female characters with a fair amount of screen time.

    justmeandmymuse
    What about the opposite, when you have good, strong female characters, like River Song or Amy Pond, and they start getting so poorly written that they just end up being valid in relation to what they mean to the Doctor?

    Eli M.
    Angela> On the original question, it's also a question of scale, right? Much smaller fandoms can have much more defined rules, because it's easier to communicate creators' wishes.

    *EllenKushner
    Cripes, it's nearly 1:00 pm here in NYC - who's coming over to bring me lunch after all this arduous typing??

    gabby
    armeleia-> she is, totally, which is why i'm so frustrated by seeing fandom take a big poop on her all the time. same goes for jane foster.

    hele
    Orlando_Jones > I _am_ uncomfortable with the equation of 'girl' with 'emotional', tbh, and the fact that no one is even arguing about it! And all that discussion about internalized misogyny going just a little while ago

    Molly P.
    It feels too good to be true.

    justmeandmymuse
    I'm not keeping up with Doctor Who fanfic, are authors taking that on?

    auroramere
    Some people can build on a less than fully-drawn character, male or female. But a sketched male character gets many more interested fans than a female.

    armeleia
    armeleia> I personally like her better than Hawkeye and I would write her in fic if I wrote for Marvel fandom.

    enchantedsleeper
    Angela> I finally found the blog post, if you're curious about the "incident" everyone was making veiled references to,

    Angela Nichols
    Orlando > I know its not you, I'll wait it out

    armeleia
    gabby> I did it again, ugh, sorry.

    roane
    Ellen > Isn't arduous typing in your job description? ;)

    *EllenKushner
    roane> No weekends off?

    Eli M.
    On the other hand, it's hard to have those rules in a much larger fandom, and you end up with things like people asking Jensen Ackles about Destiel when he clearly doesn't want to talk about it.

    Kamela
    Diane D.> That is so true! It'd be awesome if more people would understand that!

    roane
    Ellen > For good behavior.

    gabby
    hele- i was in another side convo, but totally agree. :/

    auroramere
    Ellen> typing is fine if you have someone to provide lunch, yes?

    *EllenKushner
    http://www.condenaststore.com/-sp/I-ve-got-an-idea-for-a-story-Gus-and-Ethel-live-on-Long-Island-on-the-N-New-Yorker-Cartoon-Prints_i8619165_.htm

    justmeandmymuse
    What about the numerous female villains and characters in "Arrow"?

    armeleia
    Eli> That is mortifying.

    *Orlando_Jones
    hele> I take your point but I stand by my statement. I find that the women I know who are fans love action but also try to seek out the emotional context of creative works in a way that most male fans do not. Just my own frame of reference.

    Chick C.
    Eli M.> Oh man, I cringe whenever that happens. Jensen Ackles is a great man, but he's also very insensitive to such things

    gabby
    hele - I mean, Orlando, if you id as somewhat genderqueer, that's a thing and I would never begrudge anyone's right to self-identify. but if not, when it's side-eye material.

    justmeandmymuse
    Orlando > Good point.

    *EllenKushner
    Er, that was my all-time favorite New Yorker cartoon: Published August 8, 1970

    "I've got an idea for a story: Gus and Ethel live on Long Island, on the North Shore. He works sixteen hours a day writing fiction. Ethel never goes out, never does anything except fix Gus sandwiches and in the end she becomes a nympho-lesbo-killer-whore. Here's your sandwich."

    Wife handing sandwich to husband at typewriter.

    armeleia
    Eli> I am so uncomfortable with people pushing ships on actors.

    Eli M.
    Chick C> But should people be asking him about it in the first place? Orlando has put himself out there, but other actors have not.

    *EllenKushner
    So who's coming over now?

    Laura J.
    My mother and I quote that cartoon ALL THE TIME.

    Chick C.
    I guess the great thing about platonically shipping Sam and Dean is that Jensen Ackles often unwittingly says "shippy" thing for it, so I can laugh quietly to myself in my room

    Angela Nichols
    Eli > what do you mean by rules? Angela> On the original question, it's also a question of scale, right? Much smaller fandoms can have much more defined rules, because it's easier to communicate creators' wishes.

    bookdal
    Ellen> Carnivore, Vegetarian, or Vegan? *checks airflights* :)

    Eli M.
    Ellen> I dunno. Is the sandwich worth maybe being murdered?

    Chick C.
    Eli M.> I don't think so. Jensen Ackles is a pretty private man and, along with refraining from the internet, doesn't really bother with "fandom" things. I get as upset with fandom as I do him when that happens

    *Orlando_Jones
    gabby> Hard to know how to respond to that. I don't really feel the need to qualify my point of view. People are free to interpret my meaning and intention as they see fit. I absolutely accept that intention does not mitigate offense but offense is not a zero sum game either.

    hele
    Orlando_Jones > I know, it's a pretty generalized frame of reference. As someone having been reared a girl/woman, it's still, and I'm only partly tongue in cheek here, to me, a tool of the kyriarchy

    *EllenKushner
    Auroramere: Uh huh. The only way I was able to finish SWORDSPOINT was by having my roommate invent Writer's Stew

    enchantedsleeper
    armelia> Eli> Chick C> I think the problem with fans asking actors about fandom ships is that it conflates the actors and their characters, which is exactly what we DON'T want to happen, right?

    jenna
    justmeandmymuse> arrow is fantastic for having so many great female characters!! it's telling tho, that almost every single female character has been used as bait/victims/sex objects

    DvorahSperling
    Hi guys, I know I'm late, just jumping in

    auroramere
    Ellen > First ingredient, meat!

    Eli M.
    Angela> I brought this up earlier, but our small YW fandom has a really well-known and really strict #notyouDD tagging rule when posting anything fannish in a public area. I will admit that it also helps a ton that Diane is willing to interact with us lucky fans on canon stuff though, and that she hasn't gotten frustrated with us yet. :)

    hele
    Orlando_Jones > but that isn't meant as an attack! It just surprised me. I'm not a fan of SH (just not my kind of show), but I greatly 'fangirl' you, in a non emotional way, in how you handle being in fandom

    Valerie
    Expecting actors (or authors) to weigh in on shipping of any sort is a bit weird. It's a fan activity, IMO. It doesn't belong to the creators but to the consumers.

    enchantedsleeper
    For example, the Amanda Abbington debacle where she insisted that anyone drawing fanart of John and Sherlock was actually drawing fanart of Martin and Ben. Uh, no they're not. We know the difference between fact and fiction; do you?

    Eli M.
    Angela> Those are the kinds of rules I'm talking about.

    *EllenKushner
    bookdal> As my beloved radio producer used to say: "'Vegeterian?!' I'm just one sandwich away from CANNIBALISM!!"

    Skywater
    Stew is great for the busy working female artist. Any kind of stew.

    bookdal
    Ellen> I like you even more now! :D

    gabby
    Orlando- and i hear where you're coming from, and I do get what you're saying about the different ways female-dominated and male-dominated fandoms tend to engage with texts. that said, being a man in a female space doesn't mean you have the female experience. if that...makes sense?

    Eli M.
    *makes a note to look up Ellen's radio work after this*

    armeleia
    enchantedsleeper> I think so. Especially since there seems to be some confusion with some fans as to where the character ends and the real person starts. Like asking questions as "you" rather than "character name", etc.

    Chick C.
    enchantedsleeper> Jensen Ackles does seem to take more offense to Dean being called bisexual to most. After he said Dean was heterosexual JIBCon last year, people were pissed for days, but he seemed more uncomfortable than vicious

    Valerie
    By that I mean, the actors actually making up half of the ship in question.

    *EllenKushner
    Eli> Links on my website under Audio

    enchantedsleeper
    Chick C.> Interesting, I didn't know that. I heard there was a Twitter blow-up late last year(?) in which someone working on the SPN show, I forget in what capacity, refuted the idea of Dean being bi and the fans took offence

    justmeandmymuse
    jenna > I have to admit I stopped watching because i couldn't identify with all the doe-eyed waifs with theri comic-book simplyfied character motivation, lol

    Angela Nichols
    Eli > Yeah, I suppose that depends on the creator and the people in the fandom. I don't know if I like the ideas of rules in a fandom though, what if someone else comes along and "breaks" them?

    *EllenKushner
    Dvorah> HI! I've been busy lowering the tone….

    Skywater
    Also: what about when your shipping becomes canon? It's awkward when the ship is m/f, happens on the show and the actors just dislike it.

    justmeandmymuse
    jenna > They always seemed so one-note to me.

    *Orlando_Jones
    gabby> That makes perfect sense and I appreciate the way your frame it. That said, I don't personally believe that self identifying as a fangirl implies that I have the ego or arrogance to suggest I am having the female experience. It's just a term that I believe applies to my own dynamic in fandom as the term itself is not gender specific in my own mind.

    armeleia
    enchantedsleeper> I think that was Mr. Ackles at a con or something. I know there was something about him shutting up a girl who was asking a question and it was a big deal.

    TerryK
    yeah, I am not sure about getting the actors's opinions on their fanfic characters being a good thing...

    Alena
    Eli and Angela> And on the other side there's Make John Green Find The Thing. But that seems more related to his youtube videos than his books? (Or fanart about books, not so much shippy things.)

    gabby
    so confused by ackles' refutation vs the acting choices he's made

    Chick C.
    enchantedsleeper> You're probably thinking of Guy Norman Bee saying Destiel wasn't an actual thing on the show so people shouldn't get mad about being told by Chad Kennedy that Dean and Cas were straight and Destiel was something he'd never even heard about

    *Diane D.
    Angela> More to the point re: "rules" in a fandom... how the heck does one enforce them? Send the Fandom Police

    *EllenKushner
    bookdal> Come to Wiscon!

    Laura J.
    BTW, I want to say to the actor and the best-selling writers in the room, I applaud your courage in dealing with us here on a level field who are not, and I will always argue in favor of cutting you slack.

    enchantedsleeper
    Chick C.> That might've been it, yeah

    gabby
    omg seriously everyone come to WisCon!

    Eli M.
    Angela> I guess I mean rules in terms of boundaries or social customs. So they're enforced by the same mechanisms as in other societies.

    DvorahSperling
    I think fandom is fine, but trying to impose what you think as a fan on the actors/show is too much

    Alena
    I wish I could come to wiscon this year!

    Molly P.
    Valerie > my opinion on discussing shipping with the actors very much depends on their reactions when it's brought up. For example, the Agents of SHIELD cast seem to thrive on it and frequently comment on it when they're livetweeting (both Elizabeth Henstridge and Chloe Bennet actively encourage Skimmons). That to me is perfectly fine. We know they're on board. However when someone has made it clear they're not comfortable (like Jensen) then this becomes more of a harassment issue.

    enchantedsleeper
    gabby> That's probably in the States, right? Yeah, would if I could

    auroramere
    gabby > What actors can say about a character isn't all they 'know' about the character. Their acting says more.

    *Diane D.
    Laura J. You're very kind.

    gabby
    this entire chat reminds me of all the WisCon conversations I've ever said.

    armeleia
    Diane> Re: rules, it would be impossible since different fan fanctions can't even agree with each other.

    jackie
    sorry if h=this has been asked already, but any news on Games Wizards Play?

    Chick C.
    armeleia> A girl did ask Jensen at NJCon what she thought about Dean being bisexual, and the crowd groaned because that's a topic talked about a lot in fandom, and Jensen said he was going to pretend he didn't hear what she said and skipped over her

    *EllenKushner
    Orlando> I love your self-identifying.

    jackie
    *this

    gabby
    enchanted-> in Madison, Wisconsin, yep. Where I'm typing from!

    sanders
    terry k> i think it's less about asking their opinions about their fanfic characters than asking their opinions on character interactions, and wanting a dialogue with them about various reads of those dynamics.

    Eli M.
    Sometimes that ends up as exclusion, but hopefully it ends up as education.

    Angela Nichols
    Alena > to be fair there isn't much shipping debate in John Green's works

    Skywater
    I want to, because Madison > Chicago is easy, but I am the poorest. :S

    bookdal
    Ellen> I'd love to but alas I am required to finish my dissertation this summer so writing...blergh

    *Diane D.
    armeleia> Entirely true.

    enchantedsleeper
    gabby> Yeah, it's all right for those who can get there easily ;)

    Laura J.
    That's really an interesting take (and I don't blame you for not wanting to be a fanboy, tha's not an image I'd embrace either).

    TerryK
    Molly P.> That's interesting to know about SHIELD!

    enchantedsleeper
    gabby> Some of us are a bit too far away

    *Orlando_Jones
    Guys, I only have a few more minutes. Anything else I can answer?

    Eli M.
    gabby> At some point, I will make it to WisCon. But Geek.Kon's my Madison con of choice at the moment. :)

    armeleia
    orlando> I think the perception tends to be that girls are emotional fans and boys are obsessive fans.

    gabby
    enchanted-> I wish you could :( We try to livetweet a lot of panels! is this your twitter handle?

    Laura J.
    DD, the internet is so weird. I like it. Sends you hugs.

    TerryK
    sanders> yes, thanks that's pretty much what I meant

    DvorahSperling
    How are girls not obsessive fans?

    Eli M.
    armeleia> Is there a difference?

    Alena
    Angela> Sometimes I wonder why not! Maybe because he's so active around his fandom that there's less Author Is Dead We Can Do Whatever?

    (Not that Ellen or Diane are Dead Authors!)

    Laura J.
    Please be careful of your health and say hi to the rest of SH.

    armeleia
    eli> In application, yeah.

    auroramere
    orlando > no question, just: you've added lots to my fannish experience.

    enchantedsleeper
    gabby> Ah, no. It's my fanworks handle ;) My Twitter handle is @rainbowbex

    Valerie
    Molly > Yes, if the actors initiate it, it's fine! It's just that fandom is very diverse when it comes to subtext appreciation and various ships, and it can be a no-win. I remember the MSR vs noromo wars in the X-Files very well! It's almost better for the actors/creators not to take a side in a fan battle.

    auroramere
    thanks

    Angela Nichols
    Diane > no fandom police but what I love about fandom is the community and have established rules might make it harder to feel included in that community

    Eli M.
    I mean, I see the difference you are trying to make, but aren't you necessarily emotional over something you're obsessed with, and vice versa?

    bookdal
    Orlando> Any thoughts as to what fandom brings to you and what you've found to be its challenges, as a creative professional?

    jackie
    Diane-I love the young wizards series, any news on games wizards play? you should come to texas!

    Chick C.
    Everyone on SPN has become a little weary of shipping. Even Misha doesn't engage in talk of it anymore, though he often drags in Wincest when people talk about Destiel just to even it out and make sure fandom doesn't take anything he says too seriously (he told TVGuide Carver wrote Wincest fanfiction recently after being cornered into a shipping question, lol)

    armeleia
    eli> guys get sstereotyped as obsessing over details and girls over people.

    gabby
    Just thanks for doing this, Orlando! And for being such a positive person in fandom! And for being so great on SH!

    *Diane D.
    Laura> Hug it back for me.

    *Orlando_Jones
    I respectfully submit that fangirls are emotional and obsessive while fanboys are mostly obsessive. I prefer to align with the former.

    *EllenKushner
    Orlando> Because it's subversive. I hate the way people get dogmatic & rule-bound even on the Margins, just as soon as they can!

    Angela Nichols
    but I suppose that happens anyway

    enchantedsleeper
    gabby> Live-tweeting is good - I like it when things take place on the internet so that I can actually participate!

    Laura J.
    If this be stereotyping, I'll make the most of it!

    Molly P.
    Women tend to be seen as hysterically obsessive whilst men are seen as cool, calm, and obsessive. As if they're obsession is somehow more rational.

    bookdal
    Orlando> and if you can't answer, totally understand. Thank you for joining us in these discussions.

    *Diane D.
    jackie> (a) No news: (b) Unfortunately can't be in the US any time soon: screen work at the European end is keeping me pinned down.

    Laura J.
    Thanks for explaining!

    sanders
    Orlando> What would be useful to those of us who are female-identified and fan*girls* would be having male-identified fans helping us push for a definition of fans. Just fans, without a gender binary assumed.

    armeleia
    molly> Exactly what I meant, thanks for wording it for me. :)

    Kamela
    Orlando> No questions, just that I admire your willingness to talk to us and share your thoughts on "fanwork" as it's not often you get an actor who discusses being a fan.

    Laura J.
    Nice one, sanders.

    *EllenKushner
    Alena> I'mm….not….dead……yeeeeeeet………. (I don't want to go on the cart!)

    gabby
    sanders-> i agree lots!

    Angela Nichols
    Our last question for our panelists as we wrap up The OTW proposed designating February 15th an International Fanworks Day to celebrate all things fanworks. Anyone can participate by advocating for, creating, or appreciating the wide variety of fanworks available. How would you choose to celebrate the event?

    *Orlando_Jones
    Writing Sleepy Hollow and Supernatural cross over fan fiction.

    jackie
    ok :( another reason to re-read the series though

    Valerie
    Male sports can be extremely emotional, person-centric, and obsessive as well!

    Sports fans, rather.

    hele
    sanders > yes!

    DvorahSperling
    Ellen> and Diane> particularly, what's your feeling on fanfiction of your works? I always thought it would be really weird to see someone else writing my characters.

    *EllenKushner
    Laura J.> No idea what you just said, but EXCELLENT use of the subjunctive! Bless you

    *Diane D.
    Angela> Probably by writing some fanfic. :)

    enchantedsleeper
    Angela Nichols> Ohhhh wow I didn't know that! Yes, we should have one!!

    Renaissance
    Ellen> All authors are metaphorically dead, it's just that some are very lively poltergeists.

    Molly P.
    While I'm here I'd love to thank Orlando for taking the time he does to interact with his fans. We really do appreciate it. It validates our love for the show and makes it feel like we can give something back.

    *Orlando_Jones
    bookdal> My experience over the last 8 months have actually impacted my substantially. It has informed my writing on Tainted Love and other projects. I don't see the challenges as problematic per se. I'm also completely OK with people not liking my participation or not liking me. I can be an acquired taste ;-)

    Priscilla D.
    Valerie > definitely!

    LilyC
    sanders > YeS

    armeleia
    Valerie> But sports fall into one of those socially acceptable areas of fanaticism.

    Eli M.
    Molly> armaleia> I see what you are saying now. "Are" and "are sterotyped as" make a world of difference when stating your assertions. :)

    enchantedsleeper
    Angela> It reminds me of #fandompocalypse and how people chose to celebrate that; did anyone here take part in it?

    hele
    sanders > though there is certain strength on not identifying female-identification with something to be ashamed of. Though, again, if the price is being seen as emotion, I would prefer not to.

    *EllenKushner
    Ren> LoL

    bookdal
    Orlando > Well you know I enjoy your participation ;) And thank you for answering.

    hele
    *emotional

    Chick C.
    Angela Nichols> I could beat back my writer's block demons and create some fanworks, and throw together a fic rec list or two. I'm currently working on an "Ultimate" fic rec list, and am becoming increasingly aware of my interests lol

    enchantedsleeper
    Angela> Also reading that OTW post for the first time, I'd probably be Fan 1 and use it for activism :) I love my fan activism.

    Valerie
    armeleia > True, but I think that's changing as people are more open about their non-sports fannishness.

    jackie
    diane>your young wizards series got me through two years in Africa, thank you!

    *Orlando_Jones
    Thanks everyone. If anyone is based in LA I'll be back there next week speaking with Dr. Henry Jenkins at Transforming Hollywood. Hope to see some of you there.

    *Diane D.
    Dvorah> "I'm not bothered." I don't read it/can't read it, so everything is Just Fine. ...Until we go to TV/film, at which point things are likely to change as much more $$$$$ gets involved...

    *EllenKushner
    Too busy reading everyone's posts to come up with anything original! I think you're all wonderful. I shall see thee at Philippi, then. #ineedasandwich

    gabby
    oh man i totally meant to write fic about you and jenkins ahead of that

    Renaissance
    The first step is to stop gendering emotions. Stop gendering feelings! It's a ridiculous concept. You can't gender a squee.

    gabby
    gotta get on that.

    enchantedsleeper
    Are you going, Orlando? Bye, it was great to meet you!!

    armeleia
    valerie> We got one of our male coworkers to come out of the nerd closet this year and admit his love of comic books, not just soccer. The world's changing. :)

    DvorahSperling
    Bye Orlando!

    *Diane D.
    Orlando> Thanks for being here. :)

    *EllenKushner
    Orlando> LOOOOOVE HENRY J.!!!! Give him my best.

    Aja
    bye orlando!

    Angela Nichols
    Thanks for coming Orlando!

    Chick C.
    Goodbye~!

    Skywater
    DD > idk, I think the big studios and networks mostly ignore fanworks these days

    sanders
    hele> I agree with you, because I'm all for women claiming oru space, but the fangirls vs. fanboys distinction also leaves out a swath of fandom that identifies as neither gender, which is a problem of colliding marginalizations.

    Renaissance
    Bye Orlando, sorry for mistaking you for an author I just hadn't heard of!

    DvorahSperling
    It's been a treat having, not one, but THREE people I'm a fan of in the same room!

    sanders
    Orlando> Thank you!

    Laura J.
    Ellen (goes about looking star-struck for the rest of the day..."She loved my subjunctive...")

    Eli M.
    Thanks for coming, Orlando!

    gabby
    Dovrah-> IKR??

    enchantedsleeper
    Renaissance> Agreed, but I would argue that having someone who aligns with the emotions of the "opposite" gender still sends a positive message

    *Diane D.
    Skywater> Unless the works do things in which the licensor's "brand" is threatened. We'll see how it goes...

    Eli M.
    Angela> By continuing to try to make safe spaces for people to be fans of things they love without gatekeeping or judgement. I can't write well or draw well (yet) but this is a thing I can do to give back to fandoms and original works.

    hele
    Orlando > thanks for coming! The discussion was great.

    Kamela
    Dvorah> Agreed! This entire thing was a first for me and it was a treat! As well as knowing I'm seriously not a long in the world of fandom!

    *EllenKushner
    My wife refuses to get me a sandwich. Even though she's already a nympho-lesbo-killer

    Skywater
    DD > Also true.

    Kamela
    alone*

    Eli M.
    Ellen: sue for breach of contract. :)

    *Diane D.
    Ellen> (SNICKER)

    TerryK
    Thanks all, this was fascinating

    enchantedsleeper
    lmao!

    DvorahSperling
    Oh lord

    bookdal
    Ellen> Tell her sandwiches equal love.

    gabby
    I gtg too, thanks Ellen and Diane and everyone for an awesome converastion!!

    enchantedsleeper
    Bye gabby!!

    Chick C.
    Bye!

    gabby
    Diane, I look forward to your Spock's Orchid Penis novel.

    Kamela
    I think that became the best line of the week.

    *Orlando_Jones
    And in closing, Renaissance wins the chat with the following quote "you can't gender a squee". LOL. Much love and thank you for allowing me the privilege to participate. Until next time.

    Skywater
    bye gabby!

    Valerie
    Well done, armeleia!

    Renaissance
    Late, Gab!

    Valerie
    Thank you. This was really fun and interesting.

    Eli M.
    gabby> "Soon to be a major motion picture."

    *EllenKushner
    I learned a lot. Thank you very much for inviting me.

    Angela Nichols
    Thanks to Diane and Ellen as well as everyone for coming and talking with us.

    *Diane D.
    gabby> Look hard. (And indeed possibly long.) (God, there's no way to get out of that without innuendo, is there.)

    bookdal
    Ellen> Thank you so much! It was great chatting with you.

    *Diane D.
    ...My pleasure, folks! Thanks for asking me to take part.

    Eli M.
    Thank you, Ellen, Angela, and Diane. This was an awesome experience.

    Alena
    Yes, thanks to Diane and Ellen and Orlando and everyone else!

    Angela Nichols
    if you missed anything or just want to revisit our lovely talk transcripts will be up soon at http://transformativeworks.org/

    bookdal
    Diane> Thank you for joining us!

    *EllenKushner
    Mutual! Let's all hang out on the Various Social Media…. My links are on my homepage, and I'm not snooty.

    roane
    Diane > chat is always open if you want to come by.:)

    Laura J.
    But not a killer-whore. She's a NICE girl.

    Renaissance
    It was lovely! Thanks to everyone!

    enchantedsleeper
    I loved this, thanks so much to the OTW and Angela for organising it! I'm only sorry I missed the other March events

    Eli M.
    (And Orlando! Who is still here and I thought that he wasn't!)

    bookdal
    hope everyone has a good day!

    auroramere
    Instant gratification is indeed addictive, and this was even more so.

    Michelle D.
    Thank you all, Orlando, Ellen and Diane! <3

    Laura J.
    Roane, see you at 221Bcon?

    DvorahSperling
    *joins the storm of thanks to Ellen, Orlando, and Diane*

    roane
    oh man, YES!

    Laura J.
    auromere has it right.

    *EllenKushner
    For those just joining us worried about defending Delia Sherman

    roane
    in a few days!

    Angela Nichols
    Enchanted > transcrpripts for those as well ;)

    *Diane D.
    roane> Noting that. Gotta get back to work though... weekends are for the week.

    Angela Nichols
    *transcripts

    bookdal
    thanks to everyone for the convo! #offtoeat

    Molly P.
    That was some nice organised chaos. As it's 4am I think I ought to be sleeping now. Pleasure chatting with you all, if you want to find me I'm on twitter @Vespiquens

    enchantedsleeper
    Angela> Yup, I've gotta finish reading them! But it would've been great to weigh in

    Laura J.
    This was grea, thanks!

    enchantedsleeper
    Angela> The first one had some discussion of fanworks in China that I'd have loved to contribute to as a Sinologist

    auroramere
    Delia can assuredly defend herself, expecially if ellen is weak with hunger.

    Angela Nichols
    Molly > oh my goodness thanks for staying up! get some rest!

    DvorahSperling
    Aurora> Maybe that's her plan

    enchantedsleeper
    Bye Molly! I'll see you on the Twittersphere :3

    auroramere
    Dvorah > that would take the fun out of it.

    *EllenKushner
    Delia just asked me if I would like a sandwich

    Laura J.
    Bless

    *EllenKushner
    ….saying, "What is this; LIFE fanfic?"

    DvorahSperling
    Should we celebrate?

    enchantedsleeper
    Ahahaha

    auroramere
    Laura J. > i can't wait for the next one.

    Chick C.
    Molly P.> Your Gina icon speaks to me

    roane
    I ship it, Ellen. :)

    *Diane D.
    (waving at everybody) Folks, see you around the Intarwebz... gotta go get on with boring life junk.

    Laura J.
    Have fun!

    enchantedsleeper
    Bye Diane! It's been great to discuss with you :3

    DvorahSperling
    Bye Diane! Thanks for coming by

    Chick C.
    I'm engaged in about four fic challenges, but this was a welcome distraction. Have a good day, everyone!

    DvorahSperling
    Are we shipping Ellen and Delia now?

    auroramere
    Fairway Market ahoy! (boring life junk)

    roane
    Dvorah, it's a canon ship!

    Laura J.
    They ship it themselves

    DvorahSperling
    The best kind!

    Angela Nichols
    PS. Alena > about John Green shipping, I think his characters are just so firmly established in the story there isn't much desire for noncanon ships

    auroramere
    roane > exactly. Domestic!

    Laura J.
    Thank you, Chick, nice meeting you!

    *EllenKushner
    OK, I am now laughing too hard to see. 'Bye, all! And remember - no pork, and hold the peppers!

    sanders
    Thanks, Diane & Ellen!

    auroramere
    bye!

    Angela Nichols
    Bye Ellen and Diane!

    Katherine K.
    has left the room

    DvorahSperling
    Bye Ellen! Thanks again!

    enchantedsleeper
    Bye, Ellen! It's been awesome!

    enchantedsleeper
    Ah, I missed saying bye to Chick C

    Laura J.
    So that was weird and fun and good. I think this internet thing has possibilities.

    *EllenKushner
    'Bye, all!

    DvorahSperling
    Orlando, I've been split three ways with too many fandoms in one room, but I wanted to say I adore SH and got really excited that you were here

    roane
    Bye folks :)

    Angela Nichols
    Laura > think you might keep it?

    Laura J.
    I don't like to leap into these new technologies.

    *EllenKushner
    But Mabel, they don't go!

  • Chat with our entertainment industry guests!

    By Claudia Rebaza on Friday, 28 March 2014 - 4:16pm
    Message type:

    Tomorrow the OTW will be holding the last of its four March events with our entertainment industry guests discussing "The Future of Fanworks" from 1500 to 1700 UTC (What time is that in my timezone?)

    Edited to add: The chat has ended but you can read the transcript.

    Also, if you missed any of our Milestone Month events you can catch up now!

  • The Future of Fanworks Legal Q&A - Post 4

    By Claudia Rebaza on Monday, 24 March 2014 - 5:14pm
    Message type:

    Banner by James of 2 red jets heading up in a grey sky towards an OTW logo

    Welcome to the final Q&A post with copyright specialists on "The Future of Fanworks." Today's responses are from Dr. Sonia Katyal.

    Don't forget to join us for our final Milestone Month chat on March 29th!


    1) What do you remember as your first encounter with fanworks or issues surrounding fanworks?

    I believe my first encounter with fanworks must have come through learning about slash fan fiction for an article I was writing on gender and copyright, called Performance, Property, and the Slashing of Gender in Fan Fiction. At the time, I thought that slash was one of the most imaginative, liberatory, and revolutionary modes of honoring male characters in major texts – and the fact that it largely began through the relationship between Kirk and Spock – underscored precisely how culturally transformative slash can become.

    2) Since that first encounter, have there been any notable changes you’ve seen regarding fandom and fanworks? Are there any things that have endured, or that you think may never change?

    One major change, to me, is the way in which content owners have crystallized their control over copyright—tolerating some areas, but cracking down on others. In the beginning, copyright owners seemed to object to broad forms of fan fiction; yet today, we see more and more examples of ‘tolerated uses,’ whereby content owners will not object if the site is clearly noncommercial or labeled with disclaimers. On the other hand, they may continue to object if the content on a web site includes video or other forms of copyrighted images, and if the content is overtly pornographic or sexual. So while content owners now realize that it’s a good thing to allow fans to express themselves, they still often draw the line when the web sites consist of images or content that they may find disagreeable in some form.

    3) What are some things you’d like to see happen — or not happen — with fanworks in the future?

    I would like to figure out ways to legally recognize the incredible creativity and authorship that fans add to copyrighted works. I would like content owners to limit their claims of copyright control (and ownership) over fan created works; and allow fan created works to flourish under the rubric of fair use.

    4) Given the increasing visibility of fanworks to both content/source creators and the public, what do you think are some important points to emphasize — or sources to use — when explaining fanworks to people who are unfamiliar with them?

    That there is tremendous creativity and brilliance in these works, often far more depth and complexity to the characters than one might ordinarily see in a piece of commercial content. One of the best quotes on this comes from Henry Jenkins, who has written, “...Fan fiction is a way of the culture repairing the damage done in a system where contemporary myths are owned by corporations instead of owned by the folk.”

    5) Do you think the scrutiny from academics, legal practitioners, entertainment industries and the media, have affected the creative freedom of source creators or fan creators? Are there ways in which different online spaces can have rules of engagement that vary based on a person’s particular connection to the community?

    Of course—any internal community, particularly those online—have their own sets of norms and rules that guide the posting and circulation of content. The scrutiny that lawyers and academics have exercised over the world of fandom has both enabled certain kinds of speech, and also suppressed others.

    6) The OTW proposed designating February 15th an International Fanworks Day to celebrate all things fanworks. Anyone can participate by advocating for, creating, or appreciating the wide variety of fanworks available. How would you choose to celebrate the event?

    I would ask all content creators to cease and desist, for a single day, from circulating their own content and/or attacking fan fiction, and instead spotlight the work of their brilliant fans – on their websites, merchandise, and other forms of copyrighted content. Recognizing the value of transformation, it seems, is the greatest form of integrity in copyright.

  • The Future of Fanworks Legal Q&A - Post 3

    By Claudia Rebaza on Sunday, 23 March 2014 - 6:48pm
    Message type:

    Banner by James of 2 red jets heading up in a grey sky towards an OTW logo

    Welcome to the third of our Milestone Month events! Today we continue with the third of four posts with copyright specialists on "The Future of Fanworks." Today's responses are from Dr. Peter Jaszi.


    1) What do you remember as your first encounter with fanworks or issues surrounding fanworks?

    I’m probably of the wrong generation (or too much of a slow learner) to answer this question usefully. In honesty, I should admit that my first real exposure to fanworks was through the legal controversies about them.

    2) Since that first encounter, have there been any notable changes you’ve seen regarding fandom and fanworks? Are there any things that have endured, or that you think may never change?

    I first learned about fan works at a conference I organized in 1991 (with Martha Woodmansee) around the topic of The Construction of Authorship. One of the standout papers was entitled “Common Properties of Pleasure: Texts in Nineteenth Century Women's Clubs,” by Anne Ruggles Gere (now at the University of Michigan). When it was read, the discussion pointed out the similarities between the textual practices Gere describes and the emergent world of fan fiction. Gere’s thought-provoking essay is collected in a 1994 volume published by Duke.

    3) What are some things you’d like to see happen — or not happen — with fanworks in the future?

    Probably the most significant development I’ve noted is the convergence of text-based fan writing and new technology, which has given us vidding. I got a chance to learn a bit more about this aspect of the field when I worked on the 2008 Code of Best Practices in Fair Use for On-line Video.

    4) Given the increasing visibility of fanworks to both content/source creators and the public, what do you think are some important points to emphasize — or sources to use — when explaining fanworks to people who are unfamiliar with them?

    The most important point is that although they are “derivative works” in enormous amounts of legal definition, they are not merely “derivative” in the common understanding of that term. Rather, they are new takes on existing subject matter, and their creators contribute enormous amounts of value added.

    5) Do you think the scrutiny from academics, legal practitioners, entertainment industries and the media, have affected the creative freedom of source creators or fan creators? Are there ways in which different online spaces can have rules of engagement that vary based on a person’s particular connection to the community?

    I certainly hope so, at least where the consequences of legal scrutiny are concerned. Creators of fan works should know that much, if not always all, of what they do fits comfortably within the range of follow-on creative practices sanctioned under the venerable copyright doctrine of “fair use."

    6) The OTW proposed designating February 15th an International Fanworks Day to celebrate all things fanworks. Anyone can participate by advocating for, creating, or appreciating the wide variety of fanworks available. How would you choose to celebrate the event?

    It would be great to organize a virtual discussion between creators in the U.S. and elsewhere. Here, they have the enormous advantage of the fair use doctrine — but others are not so fortunate. But there is a movement afoot in Europe to create a new copyright exception for non-commercial transformative works that would be useful if not ideal. Perhaps a forum of the kind I’m proposing could be the venue for a discussion of how creators could get behind this law reform initiative.

  • The Future of Fanworks Legal Q&A - Post 2

    By Claudia Rebaza on Saturday, 22 March 2014 - 9:20pm
    Message type:

    Banner by James of 2 red jets heading up in a grey sky towards an OTW logo

    Welcome to the third of our Milestone Month events! Today we continue with the second of four posts with copyright specialists on "The Future of Fanworks." Today's responses are from Susan Hall.


    1) What do you remember as your first encounter with fanworks or issues surrounding fanworks?

    This is something I need to split between recognising fanworks (and the issues surrounding them) as a distinct category and creating fanworks myself. The first came very much earlier than the second. I don’t believe I encountered my first ’zine until the late 80s or early 90s (it was Blakes 7, Blake/Avon slash and a friend handed it to me - in an honest-to-goodness brown envelope - for me to read on a train to Scotland, without bothering to mention any of the salient points, such as its being both quite explicit and quite meta - it being about Blake & Avon both encountering slash fiction and deciding on the spot to re-enact it.)

    From a very early age, though, I’d been creating fanworks in the sense of add-ons to things I’d read, stories I told myself before going to sleep at night, poems and so forth. The works I built on included Hiawatha, Swallows and Amazons, Sherlock Holmes, The Crystal Gryphon and the Seventh Swan (Nicholas Stuart Gray), the latter being something I’d got out of the library which had made a tremendous impression on me.

    Once I reached adolescence, it became something which I increasingly set down on paper - my parents bought me my first typewriter for my eleventh birthday - and shared (and swapped) with friends. I went to an all girls’ selective school and so far as I could tell we were all fannish; that was the era of Starsky and Hutch but there were a lot of other fan enthusiasms, including for Star Trek and Doctor Who as well as football, rugby and cricket.

    Teachers, too, frequently taught English literature by asking us to write missing scenes or scenes from another character’s perspective; although these were not expressed as being fanworks, they were forms of fan creativity.

    However, I was not aware of organised fandom or of fanworks under that name even at university, and though I did a law degree and subsequently a masters with a specific emphasis on intellectual property, issues of legality of fanworks did not arise then, either. I began being involved in online fandom first by participating in the Lord Peter Wimsey yahoogroup and then with Harry Potter for GrownUps, also on Yahoo.

    2) Since that first encounter, have there been any notable changes you’ve seen regarding fandom and fanworks? Are there any things that have endured, or that you think may never change?

    Massive changes have included the move to online means of sharing fanworks, the creation of AO3, the much greater acceptance by TPTB that fanworks exist (not always a positive thing, as the excruciating attempt by Caitlin Moran to force the stars of Sherlock to read explicit slash aloud shows), a much more coherent position being taken on legalities of fanworks.

    Things that seem never likely to change are fan feuds, splitting, bickering and online meltdowns, including flame-wars and the more disturbing extremes such as the Ms Scribe and Victoria Bitter affairs.

    3) What are some things you’d like to see happen — or not happen — with fanworks in the future?

    I’d like a much wider acceptance that there is a sound basis for their legality as fanworks both under US and EU law. However, one development I hope can be fended off are the various efforts to monetise and regularise fanworks.

    4) Given the increasing visibility of fanworks to both content/source creators and the public, what do you think are some important points to emphasize — or sources to use — when explaining fanworks to people who are unfamiliar with them?

    I think it’s important to stress that the simplistic "all fanworks are theft" line peddled by the likes of Anne Rice and Lee Goldberg is, and always has been, completely unsupported in law, even in the more restrictive legal systems of the EU. Furthermore, there are a lot of myths about alleged cases with have been brought and alleged rulings against fanworks, most of which do not stand up to scrutiny.

    A report recently commissioned by the EU into the use made to date by European countries of the exceptions in favour of "parody, caricature or pastiche" introduced by the Copyright Directive of 2001 or equivalent local exceptions was unable to find any EU cases where successful legal action had been brought against fanworks by rightsholders.

    This is not to deny possible chilling effects on fanworks by take down notices (eg YouTube) as occurred with Newport State of Mind (based upon Empire State of Mind, a hit song by the American rapper Jay-Z). The music video parody, written by M J Delaney and performed by Alex Warren and Terema Wainwright, achieved great success when posted on YouTube last year, but resulted in take down action by the right owners to have it removed from the internet.

    Sources to recommend on this are studies commissioned by the UK Intellectual Property office which found no evidence of harm to the economic interests of authors with respect to music video parodies and also the Hargreaves Report making Copyright recommendations to the UK Government.

    Hargreaves Report

    “The Government should firmly resist over-regulation of activities which do not prejudice the central objective of copyright, namely the provision of incentives to creators. Government should deliver copyright exceptions at national level to realise all the opportunities within the EU framework, including format shifting, parody, non-commercial research, and library archiving. The UK should also promote at EU level an exception to support text and data analytics. The UK should give a lead at EU level to develop a further copyright exception designed to build into the EU framework adaptability to new technologies. This would be designed to allow uses enabled by technology of works in ways which do not directly trade on the underlying creative and expressive purpose of the work. The Government should also legislate to ensure that these and other copyright exceptions are protected from override by contract” (p. 51 Review of Intellectual Property and Growth).

    Generally speaking, the creators of fanworks tend to have a very significant overlap with completist collectors of the original source material, the sort of people who attend midnight showings of the Hobbit on the day it opens and then subsequent repeat viewings and then buy the Blu-Ray. Also, I have several times myself bought or watched original material in order better to appreciate fanworks of it, and am aware of numerous other people doing so.

    5) Do you think the scrutiny from academics, legal practitioners, entertainment industries and the media, have affected the creative freedom of source creators or fan creators? Are there ways in which different online spaces can have rules of engagement that vary based on a person’s particular connection to the community?

    There’s a kind of awareness which was very much not the norm in the early days when I became involved in fandom (back to the slash zines in brown envelopes).

    One area of serious concern which has not received the attention which perhaps it should is the privatisation or enclosure of folk works, historical or mythological figures or works which are out of copyright (for example, Mulan, Robin Hood, the Jungle Books, Pooh Bear) by the growing use of trade marks. Although trade marks should only restrict commercial uses of intellectual property, the danger by way of using trade mark law as a way of deterring ISPs from hosting fanworks in future is a danger which should not be overlooked.

    A perennial area of annoyance is also the misuse of fan material by "semi-pro" fans, for example the storm relating to the publisher of a "behind the scenes" guide to Torchwood who made use of a significant body of on-line reviews, totalling almost 20% of the book as published. While fans create in a gift economy, the use of such materials in a business or quasi business setting tends to rankle, especially given a perceived gendered division between those who create the works and those who reuse and repackage them.

    6) The OTW proposed designating February 15th an International Fanworks Day to celebrate all things fanworks. Anyone can participate by advocating for, creating, or appreciating the wide variety of fanworks available. How would you choose to celebrate the event?

    I am terrible at remembering international days so it’s probably unlikely I will celebrate, though if I were to do so it would be by having an extended reccs post.

  • The Future of Fanworks Legal Q&A - Post 1

    By Claudia Rebaza on Friday, 21 March 2014 - 10:17pm
    Message type:

    Banner by James of 2 red jets heading up in a grey sky towards an OTW logo

    Welcome to the third of our Milestone Month events! Today begins the first of four posts with copyright specialists on "The Future of Fanworks." First up are responses from Dr. Chip Stewart.


    1) What do you remember as your first encounter with fanworks or issues surrounding fanworks?

    Harry Potter, between the release of the fourth and fifth books, so probably 2003. I remember following news and rumors on Mugglenet and HP-Lexicon and being referred to some of the wilder fan fiction stories.

    2) Since that first encounter, have there been any notable changes you’ve seen regarding fandom and fanworks? Are there any things that have endured, or that you think may never change?

    I've been more of an observer than a reader, so beyond noticing the mainstream appeal of some works — Fifty Shades of Grey, of course — I can't say I notice much difference. I have been surprised by the pervasiveness of the sexuality, but I don't think that's just fan fiction, I think that's the Internet in general providing a home for things to be published that would've been kept quieter before.

    The biggest shocker to me, and this is a bit off-topic, is the baseball slash fic, which I found out about in an article by Emma Span when she was at Baseball Prospectus.

    Also, watching the relationship between JK Rowling and fans online was quite interesting and perhaps illustrative of the dynamic going forward. Rowling seemed to be a huge fan of the online communities following her, as long as they stayed online and not for actual sale. When the Lexicon was about to become a book, her turn was in a sense confusing (considering her past support for the site) but also not surprising because of the commercial nature.

    That was a huge moment. If Rowling tolerates the fan community and allows publishing of the Lexicon without pushing her copyright claims, that would've been a huge step to making fan works more culturally (and perhaps legally) acceptable.

    3) What are some things you’d like to see happen — or not happen — with fanworks in the future?

    I'd love to see a good circuit court decision on a copyright case dealing specifically with fan fiction to provide some guidance, ideally one open to a finding of transformativeness and recognizing the lack of harm in noncommercial works by fans. The cases out there now — such as "The Wind Done Gone" case (Suntrust v. Houghton Mifflin, 11th Cir., 2001) are more about unauthorized sequels or parodies rather than fan works.

    The read-write culture is only going to continue to grow, and the expectation of each generation to come is going to be, "I can use that to make new things from my favorite characters and stories." The Web gives a home for these works to find a public audience. But we don't have clear guidance that this is OK — so it will all be done under the specter of infringement suits, DMCA takedowns, and/or prosecutions. That's not good for creativity or culture.

    4) Given the increasing visibility of fanworks to both content/source creators and the public, what do you think are some important points to emphasize — or sources to use — when explaining fanworks to people who are unfamiliar with them?

    To make the case that these are transformative works and that read-write culture is valuable, even if you don't quite get it, the books I'd suggest are "Remix" by Lawrence Lessig and "Cognitive Surplus" by Clay Shirky. The example I'd cite is Stephenie Meyer's support (or at least non-opposition) to the work that ultimately became "Fifty Shades of Grey" initially based on her characters.

    5) Do you think the scrutiny from academics, legal practitioners, entertainment industries and the media, have affected the creative freedom of source creators or fan creators? Are there ways in which different online spaces can have rules of engagement that vary based on a person’s particular connection to the community?

    I would like to think that academics and the legal community, particularly that portion that spends a good bit of time online, would be vigorously supporting and defending creators of fan works as both core expressive conduct under the First Amendment and as transformational fair use under copyright law. Regrettably, I think the chatter from the entertainment industry and the legislators they prop up seems to drown out advocacy efforts. I don't see a legislative avenue that will be helpful to fans anytime soon, and it may get worse before it gets better.

    So the options for fans are either (a) the courts, which I discussed above, hoping to find that great-facts case that a fair-use-friendly judge will use to stand as a defense for other fan works, and/or (b) having the communities police themselves through the culture they create in their online spaces. As for rules of engagement, I think making those clear on the sites (particularly in the terms and conditions) would be helpful. But overall, the key is promoting noncommercial uses that don't threaten or harm the character or world the original author has created — or, if a work is going to do this, having a point beyond titillation or snark to help the criticism/commentary argument for fair use. I think we'd want to build a defense stronger than parody to protect fan works in the future because an homage or a new work isn't really a parody of the original, and courts would recognize that.

    6) The OTW proposed designating February 15th an International Fanworks Day to celebrate all things fanworks. Anyone can participate by advocating for, creating, or appreciating the wide variety of fanworks available. How would you choose to celebrate the event?

    Give to those who are going to fight the fight. EFF would be my organization of choice.

  • OTW Fannews: Writers of all stripes

    By Claudia Rebaza on Wednesday, 19 March 2014 - 10:13pm
    Message type:

    Banner by Ania of a typewriter keyboard spelling out the post title

    • Author Robert Jackson Bennett wrote about how to define fans and how that related to his role as a content creator. "I happened to meet a much more established writer than me...I brought up the sort of weird alienation I felt...I knew in my head that I was writing stuff for everyone, for all kinds of people, something that’s applicable to humanity in general rather than people like me, but it was still odd to see it right in front of me, these people I wasn’t like, and know that I was writing for them. He looked at me and said, 'That’s because they’re not you’re[sic] people. They’re not. Don’t make the mistake of thinking that they are.'"
    • ComplexTech posted an interview with author Clive Thompson, who may have some insight for Bennett. "[T]he cognitive benefits of the Internet require social work. That turns out to be a problem for the 10 percent of the population who regards social work with absolute horror...If you pie-chart them, a lot of the negative pieces about the Internet are written by novelists." However, he thinks some writers are the ones to watch. "[T]he world of fan fiction is the most technologically explosive thing I've ever seen in my life. Every single technology that has come along, fan fiction people have come along and colonized it and stress-tested it and found the most amazing things...If you're ever wondering about a future technology, just drop what you're doing and find out what fan fiction people are doing with it...whatever it is, it's the future."
    • Such discoveries aren't likely to come from fanfic-for-hire, as Amazon is commissioning authors to launch fandom lines. Orion Books Editor Jo Gledhill advised fanfic writers to know what makes them happy. "[D]ecide whether you actually do want to find a mainstream publisher! It’s not for everyone. If you love writing and you love the support network of fan fiction, don’t think of it as a stepping stone. It’s a huge community with millions of readers, you’ll get some fabulous advice and feedback as your writing develops."
    • Here & Now focused on the value of that network in a story about Harry Potter fan. "Esther Earl was diagnosed with cancer at the age of 12, and died in 2010 shortly after her 16th birthday. But in that short time, she developed a network of friends through social media, blogging and YouTube videos. She was a devoted fan of the Harry Potter books and was an active member of the Harry Potter Alliance. At LeakyCon, a convention for Harry Potter enthusiasts, Esther met young adult author and vlogger John Green, who would become a friend. Green dedicated his best selling book “The Fault In Our Stars” to her and said that she was an inspiration for the novel."

    What stories and posts about fanfic writing have been important to you? Write about them on Fanlore! Contributions are welcome from all fans.

    We want your suggestions! If you know of an essay, video, article, podcast, or link you think we should know about, comment on the most recent OTW Fannews post. Links are welcome in all languages! Submitting a link doesn't guarantee that it will be included in a roundup post, and inclusion of a link doesn't mean that it is endorsed by the OTW.

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